Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, May 27 2008 Volume 11 : Number 467 In this issue: Skydiver's Balloon Takes Off Without Him re: Discharge of firearms Discharge of handguns, etc. Britain's escalating spate of teenage homicides and stabbings Letter: "Hand Gun Ban (from lawful shooters -" "RE: Response to Mayor Miller's ban of law abiding gun owners..." The 2008 David Thomson Brigade Reaches PA! Re: Discharge of firearms Miller seeks to ban guns with bylaw Miller wants shooting ranges shut down- TheStar ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 08:43:32 -0600 From: Joe Gingrich Subject: Skydiver's Balloon Takes Off Without Him http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,358336,00.html French Skydiver's Balloon Takes Off Without Him Tuesday, May 27, 2008 NORTH BATTLEFORD, Saskatchewan - A French skydiver's hope to set a new free-fall record might have come to an end on Tuesday when his ride to the sky left without him. The helium balloon Michel Fournier was going to use to soar to the stratosphere detached from the capsule he was going to use to jump from 130,000 feet, about 25 miles high. It happened after the balloon was inflated on the ground at the airport in North Battleford, Saskatchewan. The balloon drifted away into the sky without the capsule. Fournier appeared disappointed as left the capsule and walked to the hanger. He was hugged by members of his entourage. The balloon was reported to have cost at least $200,000 and Fournier was said to have already exhausted his finances. His handlers planned a media briefing for later Tuesday. Fournier, 64, had planned to make the attempt Monday, but had to postpone his plans because of weather conditions. Attempts in 2002 and 2003 ended when wind gusts shredded his balloon before it even became airborne. Fournier hoped to break the record for the fastest and longest free fall, the highest parachute jump and the highest balloon flight. He also hopes to bring back data that will help astronauts and others survive in the highest of altitudes. An army of technicians, data crunchers, balloon and weather specialists arrived recently in North Battleford, a city of 14,000 near the Saskatchewan-Alberta boundary, for the attempt. Fournier had planned to make the jump in his native France, but the government denied him permission because it believed the project was too dangerous. He then came to North Battleford, an agricultural and transportation hub northwest of Saskatoon. Spokeswoman Francine Lecompte-Gittens said Monday's postponement was due to unfavorable weather. Fournier, a former army paratrooper with more than 8,000 jumps under his belt, planned to be three times higher than a commercial jetliner. A mountain climber would have to ascend the equivalent of four Mount Everests stacked one on top of the other. It was expected to take Fournier 15 minutes just to come down, screaming through thin air at about 900 mph - 1.7 times the speed of sound - smashing through the sound barrier, shock waves buffeting his body, before finally deploying his chute about 6,000 yards above the prairie wheat fields. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 08:39:46 -0600 From: Barry Snow Subject: re: Discharge of firearms The problem is that you are not allowed to take the firearm from your house without an ATT. The old act allowed you to possess the firearm anywhere on the quarter section listed as your address and the new act further restricted that to the dwelling place at that address. I just shoot mine out the window at targets in my yard. No ATT, no problem. Barry >Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 19:45:32 -0400 >From: Lee Jasper >Subject: Discharge of firearms > >Ian queried: > > > >>> Finally, I wish to point out to you that there is no legislative >>> authority for you to discharge a restricted or prohibited handgun >>> /firearm on anyone's property (including your own) without the approval >>> of the Chief Firearms Office. Failing to do this and engage in the >>> discharged of these classes of firearms is a criminal offence. >>> >>> I was aware I needed to check in with the Municipality. Does anyone >>> have an online reference to this? >> >> > >ATT expressly states that any discharge must be at a shooting facility >'approved' by the prov. AG. The Back 40 doesn't cut it. (Now if you've >got a paper sludge berm for a backstop . . .). > >I presume the CFO would tolerate some exception if you're a trapper and >dispatching a trapped beaver in the outback or a surveyor warding off >Big Blackie in the north country. > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 10:43:37 -0400 From: Lee Jasper Subject: Discharge of handguns, etc. I previously mentioned that shooting such firearms was restricted to 'ranges approved by the AG' on ATTs. But of course that restriction refers to the transport of same, to shoot. FYI such instruction was indicated by CFOs going back to Form 42 Carry Permit's in 1967. This is provincial but probably universal. But isn't 'use at approved ranges' also indicated on each Application to Register? This would make it a federal matter. Nyet to the Back 40. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, May 27, 2008 8:47 am From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 2" Subject: Britain's escalating spate of teenage homicides and stabbings PUBLICATION: GLOBE AND MAIL DATE: 2008.05.27 PAGE: A15 BYLINE: DOUG SAUNDERS dsaunders@globeandmail.com SECTION: International News EDITION: Metro DATELINE: London ENGLAND WORDS: 984 WORD COUNT: 995 - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- YOUTH CRIME Actor's death ramps up knife controversy Harry Potter cast member is latest casualty in Britain's escalating spate of teenage homicides and stabbings - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the forthcoming Harry Potter movie, teenage actor Robert Knox manages to survive secret potions, flying wizards and feuding factions of students. In real-life Britain, however, a far more mystifying and tragic threat cost him his life this weekend and plunged the actor into the centre of a national controversy. Mr. Knox, 18, was killed outside a pub near his home in Sidcup, England, on Saturday night, in the midst of a brawl involving teenagers carrying wooden-handled kitchen knives. A 21-year-old man was charged with murder last night. The actor's death was the latest in an extraordinary string of fatal stabbings, part of a national epidemic of knife-related youth crime that has polarized Britain. In a country where gun-control laws are so tough that handgun crime is almost unheard of, and where crime rates are at a historic low, nobody quite knows what to make of the extraordinary surge in teenage homicides and assaults, often very serious, involving weapons that can be found in kitchens and workshops. The slaying of Mr. Knox, who portrayed Harry Potter's schoolmate Marcus Belby in the popular wizard movies, was the year's 28th fatal stabbing in Britain and the 14th in London, which has seen more than 100 stabbings in the first five months of the year. Almost all these crimes were committed by young men in their teens or 20s. In the decade since 1997, during which the numbers for almost all other violent and non-violent crimes have fallen dramatically, the number of British teenagers convicted of knife-related crimes has nearly tripled, from 482 to 1,256 in 2006. Surveys suggest that about 20 per cent of London teenagers carry a knife, despite increasingly tough laws. London's police recently announced plans to deploy squads of officers who will stop and search teenagers for knives, even if there is no reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. That practice raised alarm among many politicians, who remember that the last time random stop-and-search laws were employed, in the 1980s, they led to race riots in London and increases in crime. "Stop and search can alienate communities," Sir Al Aynsley Green, the government's Children's Commissioner, warned yesterday. Justice Minister Tony McNulty, a tough-on-crime crusader appointed by Prime Minister Gordon Brown, attacked Sir Al last night, accusing him of "talking nonsense," and arguing for a crackdown on teenagers: "He is plumb wrong and miles away from where the public are. People want policemen not only to be out on the street but helping the process." Indeed, members of the young actor's family have joined a chorus of voices calling for much tougher punishment of knife crimes. "Ironically enough, the last time I saw Robert, we had a talk about knives, and the problems of people having knives, and steering clear of problematic areas," said the actor's father, Colin Knox. "There's a lot of fear out there and someone has to change the way we think. Youngsters nowadays, they fear for their lives." His uncle, John Knox, expressed a tougher, and increasingly popular, sentiment: "Don't mollycoddle them, if they want to get that type of action going, bang them up [imprison them], bang them up for five years. This wouldn't happen if people were firmer with them." That view was echoed in Britain's tabloid newspapers and talk-radio shows over the long weekend, and picked up last night by politicians in the opposition Conservative Party. Some are calling for the automatic imposition of the maximum sentence of five years in prison for possession of knives. But the problem, according to crime experts, is that Britain's knife laws are already extremely tough, and their increasing harshness over the past 10 years has done little to curb the phenomenon. No country in Western Europe imprisons teenagers in numbers as great as Britain, where prisons are overcrowded to the point that there are waiting lists to get people into crowded cells. The number of minors in British prison is the highest in Europe and has increased by 8 per cent since 2005. This was part of an initiative launched by Prime Minister Tony Blair in 1997 under the slogan "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime," which dramatically increased the sentences for youth crimes and expanded the use of the prison system to unprecedented levels. But a 10-year audit of Britain's youth-crime laws, released last week by the independent Centre for Crime and Justice Studies at London's King's College, found that despite much tougher laws and a 45-per-cent increase in spending on youth justice, crime rates among young people have remained unchanged. "The government's decade-long youth justice experiment was a bold attempt to deploy the full force of the youth justice system to tackle problematic and disruptive behaviour by young people," the report's co-author Richard Garside said. "This new research suggests that the experiment has largely failed, if reported youth offending is the measure of success." Indeed, the audit found that the tougher laws may actually be driving young people toward worse criminal activity by putting those convicted of lesser crimes in closer contact with more hardened criminals inside the penal system. Significantly, it also concluded that the government has stopped trying to go after youth crime by confronting its root causes. The young British men who carry knives, according to criminologists, are almost all among the group categorized by the government as NEETs - 16- to 19-year-olds who are "not in employment, education or training." Despite a booming economy and a number of programs by the Labour government designed to reduce the number of unskilled dropouts, their numbers have actually increased in the past decade, a rise that many observers believe is behind the emergence of knife crime. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 22:31:02 -0300 From: "M.J. Ackermann, MD" Subject: Letter: "Hand Gun Ban (from lawful shooters -" To: mayor_miller@toronto.ca, councillor_pantalone@toronto.ca, councillor_carroll@toronto.ca, councillor_debaeremaeker@toronto.ca, councillor_fletcher@toronto.ca, councillor_kelly@toronto.ca, councillor_lindsay_luby@toronto.ca, councillor_mammoliti@toronto.ca, councillor_mcconnell@toronto.ca, councillor_mihevc@toronto.ca, councillor_moscoe@toronto.ca, councillor_rae@toronto.ca, toronto@torcvb.com, accesstoronto@toronto.ca, ceo@bot.com, chair@bot.com, hlipp@bot.com, ccosta@bot.com, gstone@bot.com, admin@showmetoronto.com Subject: Hand Gun Ban (from lawful shooters - criminals are already banned from having guns) *Dear Mayor Miller, * *I am one of the millions of people that responsibly own firearms. I clearly understand that firearms owners are not welcome in the City of Toronto and I will respect your wishes. I will not visit your city and spend my money there. As well, I will tell others of my decision and encourage them to do the same. * *While you continue to declare your invisible clothes to be of the highest quality, all the while only fooling yourself, those of us who enjoy the shooting sports (and who by the way have passed security clearances much more stringent than you ever have) will continue to work towards effective laws that actually work, unlike you Liberals' sacred cow gun registry. Bizarrely, I do agree with your statement, "Banning handguns...would make an incredibly powerful statement about the kind of city and the kind of country we are". It would indeed make a very powerful statement. But that statement would be that in Canada, we care not a whit for due process or basic human rights. We care not a whit for evidence or truth. All we care about is emotional rhetoric and political expediency. We believe in misdirected group punishment and cultural genocide. We are an intensely bigoted society in denial. We lack any capacity to use the lessons of geography and history to our benefit, and we are hell-bent determined to create the kind of Orwellian statist dystopia that will have our grand children cursing our memories, if they are capable of independent thought at all. * *Sincerely,* - -- M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) Rural Family Physician, Box 13, 120 Cameron Rd. Sherbrooke, NS Canada B0J 3C0 902-522-2172 mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca "Hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst". ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 08:10:18 -0400 From: TONY KATZ Subject: "RE: Response to Mayor Miller's ban of law abiding gun owners..." Subject: "RE: Response to Mayor Miller's ban of law abiding gun owners property" Great idea Mike, here is my letter... Dear Mayor Miller, I am one of the millions of people that responsibly own firearms. I clearly understand that firearms owners are not welcome in the City of Toronto and I will respect your wishes. I will not visit your city and spend my money there. As well, I will tell others of my decision and encourage them to do the same. You are a bigoted hypocrite and should you succeed in implementing your ban what will you do when gun violence increases as it has in every jurisdiction that has that has done so. Far better to ban fear mongers such as yourself and get someone to tackle the the violent thugs who are the problem rather than law abiding citizens who enjoy one of the safest sports around. Sincerely Tony Katz > Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 21:39:56 -0300 > From: mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca > To: cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca >Subject: Response to Mayor Miller's ban of law abiding gun owners property > > http://www.torontothebad.com/ > > -- > M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike)> Rural Family Physician, > Box 13, 120 Cameron Rd. > Sherbrooke, NS > Canada B0J 3C0 > 902-522-2172 > > mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca > > "Hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst". > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 20:52:05 -0600 From: "David R.G. Jordan" Subject: The 2008 David Thomson Brigade Reaches PA! A little something to try and keep us in cheer and to hopefully embolden us as we all proceed foward in our up and coming combat to save the existence of our culture and our way of life. - -DRGJ I just saw on the local evening news that the one of the 2008 David Thompson's Brigade, canoe teams has just reached Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, this day! That would have meant that they probably would have passed very close by either late last night or very early this AM, by, under the Borden Bridge which is just 28 odd miles NW of S'toon! Prince Albert is about 82 miles NNE of Saskatoon and the South Saskatchewan and North Saskatchewan rivers both meet up about 28-32 miles almost straight East of Prince Albert at Saskatchewan River Forks, [near Weldon, Sask.], in where the now "Saskatchewan River" then proceeds up to Tobin Lake, right by Nipawin, [Joe Gingrich], up through Cumberland House, Sask, through The Pas, Manitoba, ending up draining in to Lake Winnipeg. References Saskatchewan River http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saskatchewan_River North Saskatchewan River http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Saskatchewan_River South Saskatchewan River http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Saskatchewan_River River Systems Map http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Saskatchewanrivermap.png The 2008 David Thompson Brigade's Website, with Live Satellite tracking. http://www.2008thompsonbrigade.com/index.htm Satellite map http://www.rimrocked.com/dtb 06 Paddle Canada 1 - Canada The canoe team, that Len Miller is on. http://www.2008thompsonbrigade.com/team-paddlecanada.htm Although I must admit our oh so brilliant media has failed us again! Len Miller in 06 Paddle Canada 1 - Canada, has already passed the Saskatchewan River Forks, [near Weldon, Sask.], and is currently as I write near the village of Glen Mary and NE about 3 miles from Fort A la Corne, coming up on the James Smith Indian Reserve 100. http://www.rimrocked.com/events/eventview.php?eid=4 Beautiful scenery, albeit just starting to enter very serious mosquito and black fly country. Bulldog flies yet to come. Also, as over half of Southern Alberta is apparently under water, and the Sask. Water Authority has recently opened up the Gardener Dam, to relieve all of the Alberta run-off, the Saskatchewan River(s) are going to be very wide and very, very fast. They will be flying down that river like there's no tomorrow! Paddle dat der canoe, Len- paddle! Later-DRGJ Katsumoto: “You believe a man can change his destiny? “ Algren: “I think a man does what he can, until his destiny is revealed.” - -“The Last Samurai” (2003) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 22:29:26 +0900 From: Ian Jefferson Subject: Re: Discharge of firearms On 27-May-08, at 8:53 PM, TONY KATZ wrote: > No! the firearms act is federal, hunting and shooting activities are > provincial. You can't hunt with handguns, provincial regs on that. you > need an ATT(provincial) to move any restricted rifle or pistol and Sure but I'm not moving it more than about 50 feet in/on my own home so I don't need an ATT. Do I? > > prohibited pistol. From Wikipedia: (recall the comment from the CFO was "Criminal Offence" and they referred me to Federal legislation on shooting ranges, not applicable) "Criminal law in Canada is under the exclusive jurisdiction of the federal government. The power to enact criminal law is derived from section 91(27) of the Constitution Act, 1867. Most criminal laws have been codified in the Criminal Code of Canada, as well as the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, Youth Criminal Justice Act, and several other peripheral Acts. There remains, however, a parallel power of the provincial government to "administer" the justice system, which gives the provinces power to enforce and prosecute laws. In addition, this gives the provinces the power to enact quasi-criminal offences. The administration of justice and penal matters are under the jurisdiction of the provinces, so each province administers most of the criminal and penal law through provincial and municipal police forces." I'm still looking for a link to contradict the Firearms act and regulations around shooting ranges which is basically silent on this issue. So far what I read is with no ATT, and no municiple restriction you can discharge your firearm safely into a bullet trap all day long in your living room. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 22:04:46 -0400 From: Dan Haggarty Subject: Miller seeks to ban guns with bylaw [http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/431123] Miller seeks to ban guns with bylaw May 26, 2008 05:04 PM John spears City Hall Bureau Mayor David Miller wants guns out of Toronto — and he's backing a tough new bylaw that would ban the manufacture and warehousing of guns in the city. And while Miller says handguns are the particular target of the proposed bylaw, a staff report doesn't distinguish between handguns and rifles and shotguns used in hunting. The bylaw, proposed in a staff report, would give the city zoning powers to restrict or ban the manufacture and warehousing of firearms. Miller said he wants to add ammunition to the bylaw as well. And he had strong words about gun ownership, referring to the recent shooting of John O'Keefe, who was killed on Yonge St. by a stray bullet fired from a legally owned handgun. "After John O'Keefe's tragic killing, I don't think there's any defence for sports shooters any more," Miller said. "It's a hobby that creates danger to others. Guns are stolen routinely from so-called legal owners. It's time that we got those guns out of Toronto." Miller said the focus is especially on handguns. "It's handguns that are so easily accessible to criminals, and it's handguns that so often kill people on the streets on Toronto," he said. "It's about a value. Do we as a society value safety, or do we value a hobby that creates danger? And nobody can deny that that hobby directly results in people being shot and killed on the streets of our city. Those are the facts. And they're provable again and again and again." A report from city staff urges the city to end leases with two gun clubs that have rifle ranges in city facilities. The proposed bylaw would ban all firearms from being discharged in the city, except by police or the military. - -- Dan Haggarty Principal Consultant Dunhaven Inc. "advanced business system architectures" 416.234.8202 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 07:47:51 -0600 From: "David R.G. Jordan" Subject: Miller wants shooting ranges shut down- TheStar Miller wants shooting ranges shut down http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/431333 May 27, 2008 04:30 AM John Spears Robert Benzie Staff Reporters Mayor David Miller wants to close recreational shooting ranges in Toronto, along with giving the city power to block gun manufacturers and wholesalers from opening new plants or warehouses. "Nobody can deny that hobby directly results in people being shot and killed on the streets of our city," Miller said of sport shooting yesterday, amid debate on a possible gun bylaw. Canadian Olympic pistol shooter and downtown resident Avianna Chao begs to differ. She says that if Miller gets his way, it could mean an end to her sport – and it won't make the streets one bit safer. Miller wants to terminate leases with two gun clubs that have shooting ranges on city property, one at Union Station, the other at Don Montgomery community centre. Chao, who will head to Beijing this summer to compete for Canada at the Olympics, began shooting at Don Montgomery and now trains primarily at the Union range. "When I heard about this city proposal today it just absolutely knocked the wind out of me," Chao said yesterday. The gun debate erupted on a day when provincial Attorney General Chris Bentley and Community Safety Minister Rick Bartolucci were writing to their federal counterparts, seeking co-operation on curbing firearm violence. "As you know, the people of Ontario continue to have serious concerns about the threat posed by guns and gun-related crime in our communities, particularly on the streets of downtown Toronto," Bentley and Bartolucci wrote in a five-page letter to federal Attorney General Rob Nicholson and Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day. They asked for a three-point plan to limit gun violence by: - -Making sure federal firearms marking regulations are stringently followed so guns can be traced. - -Appointing federal prosecutors to Ontario's guns and gangs task force. - -Closing legal loopholes that let gun parts be brought into Canada. At the same time, city staff released a report calling for a bylaw that would allow the city to restrict or prohibit the making and wholesaling of firearms in Toronto. Only police and the military should be allowed to operate firing ranges, the report says, calling for an end to the gun club leases. *Recommendations would apply to all firearms, including rifles and shotguns.* But in a scrum with reporters, Miller directed most of his comments toward handguns. "After John O'Keefe's tragic killing, I don't think there's any defence for sports shooters any more," Miller said, referring to the man shot in January by a stray bullet. The gun was legally owned by the man charged in the killing. "It's a hobby that creates danger to others. Guns are stolen routinely from so-called legal owners. It's time that we got those guns out of Toronto," he said. "Do we as a society value safety, or do we value a hobby that creates danger?" he asked. "Nobody can deny that hobby directly results in people being shot and killed on the streets of our city. Those are the facts. And they're provable again and again and again." Existing makers and wholesalers of firearms would not be affected by any new bylaw. Nor would retailers, as they're governed by federal law. The staff report says as many as 40 per cent of handguns seized by Toronto police were legally purchased but stolen from their owners. But Chao said shutting down shooting ranges and banning manufacturers has nothing to do with safety. "Gang members don't visit these (shooting) clubs," she said. "You have to show your licence and all the paperwork. This has nothing to do with gang violence." Her own guns are safely stored and locked, she said. She's never had a gun stolen. "Anyone should be able to see through this," she said, "that this is the politicians just trying to say they did something, even though it will have no impact on actual gun violence. ... Why don't they go after the gangs? Why don't they go after the illegal trafficking of firearms?" Chao said Canadian shooters are already handicapped compared with competitors because other countries let shooters train full time. If ranges are shut down, she said, "I don't know how we're expected to compete internationally." Steven Spinney, firearms safety officer for the Scarborough Rifle Club, was also stunned by the news. "It doesn't make any sense to be zeroing in on a gun club," he said. "We're an Olympic sport ... I'm not sure how shutting us down would help to cut the gun crime." Participants are required to take a safety course and the club uses only single-shot rifles. With files from Vanessa Lu ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V11 #467 *********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:drg.jordan@sasktel.net List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca FAQ list: http://www.canfirearms/Skeeter/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://www.canfirearms.ca CFDigest Archives: http://www.canfirearms.ca/archives To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next four lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".)