From:
Sun 12:06
Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3
#560To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
Cdn-Firearms Digest Sunday, December 17 2000 Volume 03 : Number 560
In this issue:
[Fwd: BOUNCE cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: Approval required:]
Air guns
Reality check
Re: Licensing rules are a joke
Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #559
CFC Special Bulletin for Business #28 Airguns
Securicor Shootout in Winnipeg
The M.A.D.D Commercial
Re: Reality Check
CFC ID photos - Vol 559
Second biker spy uncovered in Quebec gov't
Hacking - Nah, much too complicated
Re: CFC Special Bulletin for Business #28 Airguns
Customs gave me a revolver for Christmas
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 07:20:11 -0700
From: Ian Parkinson <IParkinson@ccinet.ab.ca>
Subject: [Fwd: BOUNCE cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: Approval required:]
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 23:09:03 -0800
From: Peter Cronhelm <cronhelm@nucleus.com>
Subject: Left hand flintlock
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 21:39:25 -0600
From: Kelly Garner <kgarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: black powder
I am thinking of taking up flintlock rifles.
Do you have a lot of experience with a muzzleloader? If
not, DO NOT start with a flintlock. I shot a caplock for 3
years before getting my flinter and it was way more
challenge than I had expected. Flinters are fun but they
require a lot of work and are not good starter rifles.
I shoot left handed, and
since there are very few if any of these types of firearms
around I was
thinking of using a right handed model. My only concern is
the flare up
from the flash pan, so I was wondering if anyone could give
advice on
this subject (characteristics and safety issues).
I am a lefty and I would highly suggest that you do not get
a right handed flintlock. Not if you want to continue using
your eyes anyways. There are some commercially available
left hand flintlocks. Try the Lyman Great Plains rifle. TC
might also carry a left hand Hawken flinter but I am not
positive on this.
I ended up having a rifle built for me by a Lethbridge
gunsmith. While it was not cheap, it was not excessively
expensive either and it is MY rifle.
Peter Cronhelm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:10:46 -0500
From: EUGEN SINGER <esinger@sprint.ca>
Subject: Air guns
When I read the CFC Special Bulletin for Businesses - No 28 Airguns I am
confused .
Who decides what is and what is not legal. Is it the law as it is written
and interpreted by a judge or the opinion of a official in the Min. of
Justice or in the CFC.
Eugen
Eugen Singer
Toronto, ON., Canada
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:10:14 -0500
From: Kean St-Jean <kean1@telusplanet.net>
Subject: Reality check
REF: REALITY CHECK ON GUNS
http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSPolitics0012/12_cleroux-can.html
Sir:
Judging by your statements you have no knowledge about the subject
matter and are doing this to get people like myself to write to you for
you amusement.
Your statistics are as unbelievable as your comments. Clearly, you have
spent your life allowing people --such as myself -- to protect you,
thereby allowing you to live your life in ignorant bliss.
Please feel free to continue to believe that you are safer to live your
life in this manner. Please, do lie down before your attacker and adopt
the fetal position at his feet. Beg for mercy from the person who is
violating you. Then speak to me about 'standing an even chance' of
surviving.
Contrary to you misguided beliefs, a typical criminal would only be as
dangerous as you with a gun. Not because of their skill, but because of
their ignorance. Typically they do not know "exactly what to do with a
gun" as you believe. In fact most are as incompetent as you appear to
be in this matter. I will grant you that they are changing their ways
and becoming educated. Perhaps you should do the same. 'Hours on end
in dark spaces'... please stick to writing fiction.
"A gun owner's chances against an armed burglar are not even as good as
they would be against an armed policeman, yet few gun owners would
believe that they could outgun a policeman entering his home at night. "
I submit for your consideration that the person who has the knowledge of
where every piece of furniture is located in his house. A person who
has detailed knowledge of the layout of a building where they spend most
of their time. A person who knows every familiar creek and sound of
their home has the very distinct tactical advantage over an intruder -
be they criminal or the police - who is invading said dwelling.
"Statistics show that in one-on-one fire-fights, the armed policeman
usually comes out on the losing end with the armed bandit. That is why
policemen resort to bullet-proof vests, extensive electronic and
communications equipment, and manpower ratios of at least ten to one
against criminals they corner"
Again this statement clearly displays your lack of knowledge in regards
to tactics. Please refrain from incorrectly attempting to educate
others who may take you for an expert. I ask again that you concern
yourself with writing fiction and other fairy tales.
Kean St-Jean
Cold Lake, Alberta
(Formerly of the Ottawa area)
kean_st_jean@hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:38:08 -0800
From: Brian W Bedingfield <bbedingf@home.com>
Subject: Re: Licensing rules are a joke
At 11:36 PM 12/14/00 -0600, you wrote:
<snip>
>PAL(against my better judgement). First the picture was a joke, a quick
>Polaroid taken without my glasses on(the only time I take them off is to
>sleep, I am quite near sighted without them). I questioned how this picture
>would show someone who I was when they would see me with glasses but my
>picture would be without. I was told that CFC wanted to see my eye's and if
>there was any glare they would reject my licence. I then showed my two
>other picture IDs showing me wearing glasses but was again told that it
>didn't matter, if they saw any reflection then my app would be rejected.
<snip>
On the application form it states, "do not wear a hat or sunglasses".
Regular corrective eyeglasses would be permitted.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 10:43:08 -0800
From: B Farion <bfarion@pris.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #559
>
> - -- Armed intruders almost always know exactly what to do with a gun.
They
> practice shooting their guns for hours on end, in dark enclosed spaces
> similar to night-time burglaries and not in the well-lit, take-your-time
> conditions most gun owners enjoy in their gun clubs.
Hi;
Lets see you prove it! Most gang members etc would earn more money working
at
McDonalds!
This is nothing more than anti-gun bull and has no basis in hard research!
Only 2% of a
population need to carry guns to frighten thugs, according to Lott! And he
did
lots of hard
research!
Truly !!!!
Bill (;-0
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:53:56 -0500
From: Marc Mousseau <marc@whyfor.com>
Subject: CFC Special Bulletin for Business #28 Airguns
Special Bulletin for Business #28 Airguns
http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/owners&users/bulletins/special/businesses/bulletin28-en.html
[French] Bulletin sp�cial � l�intention des entreprises - NO 28
http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/owners&users/bulletins/special/businesses/bulletin28-fr.html
Special Bulletin for Businesses - No 28 Airguns
Snapshot
* Some media reports have recently claimed that millions of popular
airguns must now be registered because they are capable of discharging
new, lightweight pellets at a velocity exceeding the limit of 152.4
metres per second.
* The Minister of Justice is responsible for determining whether airguns
must be registered.
* Further consultations and discussions are required before any new
decisions are made.
* In the meantime, the status quo prevails.
Under Part III of the Criminal Code, airguns are not considered to be
firearms for the purposes of the Firearms Act unless they were:
a.designed or adapted to discharge projectiles at a muzzle velocity of
more than 152.4 metres (500 feet) per second, or
b.designed or adapted to discharge projectiles that themselves were
designed to attain a velocity of more than 152.4 metres (500 feet) per
second after they have been discharged.
The Government constantly assesses new and emerging technology to ensure
that public safety standards are maintained. As well, the Firearms
Reference Table (FRT) of known firearms is frequently updated as test
results and other new information becomes available. However, the
assignment of an FRT number does not automatically make an airgun
subject to registration. The final determination as to what constitutes
a firearm for the purposes of licensing and registration lies with the
Minister of Justice.
The tests of high-velocity pellets will not be the sole factor in making
this determination. Several other factors must also be taken into
consideration, including the manufacturer�s design specifications.
Manufacturers and other interested parties will be consulted and various
options will be examined before a determination is made.
In the meantime, the status quo prevails. There are no changes in the
procedures you must follow to purchase or sell airguns. If the
manufacturer�s specifications indicate that the muzzle velocity of an
airgun is less than 152.4 metres or 500 feet per second, a customer does
not need a licence to buy it. As well, you do not have to go through the
transfer process to get approval and to have the airgun registered to
the customer. The FRT issued last May contains the relevant list of
firearms to be used by verifiers, police and other FRT users.
December 14, 2000
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:46:02 -0400
From: m_adams@ns.sympatico.ca (Michael Adams)
Subject: Securicor Shootout in Winnipeg
Does anybody know anything more about this incident? Any word on who fired
the first shot? (My money is on the bad guy BTW)... Have they found the
suspect who left the mall trailing blood?
Was the gun used by the bad guy legally registered? Did he have a PAL /
POL? Enquiring minds WANT TO KNOW!!!!
The original story made national news, but as is common, the follow up just
wasn't there.... Glad to know that C-68 did SO much to prevent this
crime.... Bet if he survived / is apprehended that the firearms charges will
be the first dropped / bargained away.....
Anyone?
Mike Adams
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 08:56:02 -0800
From: Bruce Merkley <booster@uniserve.com>
Subject: The M.A.D.D Commercial
That D@#$%d commercial with the idiot waving a gun around is back again.
I was watching The Dave Chalk show on the business channel 08:50 Saturday
morning and they trotted out this piece of garbage once again.
I thought that we had settled that one with them.
Bruce Merkley
The Web may be the single greatest check on government excess since the
Colt revolver.
Which explains, of course, why the government is still frantically
trying to find some way to regulate and censor it.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:26:08 -0400
From: r.y@ns.sympatico.ca (Rick Young)
Subject: Re: Reality Check
Is this supposed to be a joke? Or does some moron with a degree from =
Cukier University actually believe this drivel?
Armed intruders spending all their time practising - I'm still trying to =
figure out whether this claim was the result of too many recreational =
narcotics or a hint of the next point of attack..."That gun nut must be =
a criminal, Officer - look how he/she like to shoot that weapon of mass =
destruction!" For God Sake, most POLICE officers don't spend enough time =
practising to be anything more than marginally competent/safe with a =
handgun! And yes, I do have some basis for these comments, not just =
circumspection.=20
1) I used to teach the IPSC Black Badge course and the most oft heard =
comment from law enforcement types taking the course was along the lines =
of "I thought I knew how to handle a gun until I took this!"=20
2) A local club lost the use of two of it's ranges thanks to the =
carelessness of law enforcement officers renting the facility a few =
years back. (launching bullets over the backstop by sky firing)
If anyone other than anti-gun types continued to disseminate such drivel =
in the face of fact year after year, some federal watchdog agency would =
have them before the courts. And that, ladies and gentlemen, says it all =
concerning where we are headed with respect to the private ownership of =
firearms.
Rick
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 13:26:24 -0800
From: "Hugh Mortimer" <hmortimer@direct.ca>
Subject: CFC ID photos - Vol 559
I find the descriptions of the CFC photo sessions and their results quite
funny (eg. Licensing rules are a joke in Vol 559)
although the issue itself is not. My FAC (issued October, 1996) application
was rejected twice. The reason, and the only reason, was that the photo was
not exactly correct. I had to return to the photographer twice for
additional photos. As I recall, the size of my face was not exactly
correct. The photographer had taken FAC photos before, and was set up to do
so, being one of the best known photo-shops in town.
take care,
Hugh
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:16:44 -0500
From: Don Clarke <dclarke@cancom.net>
Subject: Second biker spy uncovered in Quebec gov't
Now, would all you government shills please tell us again just how safe
our information will be in the governments firearms database? Will you
guarantee us 100% that the database won't be used by criminal gangs as a
'shopping list'... because I don't feel too secure after reading about
biker gangs digging out "secure" information about police, using
government computers!
http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/view.cgi?/news/2000/12/16/bikerspy001216
Second biker spy uncovered in Quebec gov't
WebPosted Sat Dec 16 13:19:42 2000
QUEBEC CITY - Quebec's opposition has revealed the existence of another
biker gang spy it says is working in a provincial government department.
Liberal MNA Jacques Dupuis went public with the information Friday. He
told the province's legislature that a Revenue Quebec employee gave
information about police officers to the Hells Angels, including home
addresses for officers in the anti-gang squad.
The charge appeared to catch the government off guard. After denying any
knowledge of the affair, Revenue Minister Paul Begin later confirmed one
of his employees has been suspended.
Begin admitted his internal investigators only learned about the mole
when police came to question the employee earlier this week. An
investigation is now under way. Earlier, Dupuis revealed that the auto
insurance board had a biker spy on it.
- --
Why did we just have an election in Canada?
a) to bury the Auditor Generals report on the HRDC scandal,
b) to block the report on criminal misdeeds by top Liberals,
c) to feed Jean Chretiens ego,
d) all of the above.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:16:36 -0500
From: Jhogue <jhogue@videotron.ca>
Subject: Hacking - Nah, much too complicated
Source : La Presse, Saturday Dec. 16, 2000, p. A21, Byline : Andr�
No�l
SAAQ : des fuites qui co�tent des vies
Leaks at the Soci�t� de l'Assurance Automobile du Qu�bec (SAAQ) cost
lives.
In a cost-cutting exercise, the SAAQ has shut down many of its local
branches and issued contracts to 115 non-profit organizations and other
private organizations to issue driver licenses and car registrations.
Without any security investigations, the SAAQ issued access passwords to
employees of these organizations.
One such employee queried the SAAQ database on the address, car make,
model and registration plate number of one Jean C. Auger, 55, in June.
In September, the same Jean C. Auger was shot five times in the back
with a silenced .22 handgun right outside the Journal de Montr�al office
where he works. Auger had been writing a lot about organized crime,
including criminalized biker gangs. (He survived his wounds). The same
SAAQ employee had queried 11 other persons, involved with the Rock
Machine. 3 were murdered following these searches, 4 others were
ambushed and wounded. It is now established that criminalized biker
gangs have moles inside the SSAQ. Rumors about her range from being the
mistress of a criminal biker (?) to being burdened by significant
Video-Poker debts. Another employee used the database to find where his
ex-wife lived.
Police informed the president of the SAAQ on October 26 when this is
discovered but the president was about to go on vacation so the suspect
employee retained her access privileges to the database until November
14.
When questioned about this in the Asembl�e nationale (Qu�bec
parliament), Transports Minister Cheverette could only answer he did not
know about any of this.
In a previous article, La Presse revealed that the SAAQ explained it
could not conduct security investigations because of concerns about
civil liberties, shuffling responsibility to the non-profit
organizations that should know whom they are hiring.
There are no triggers to detect improper usage of the database (comment
: such as making a query without creating a new license), the SAAQ just
looks at the queries log when there is a complaint, after the fact.
Article 159 of the Loi d'acc�s states that anyone who knowingly provides
access to a document or confidential information commits an infraction
and is liable to a fine ranging from $200 to $1,000 and in the case of a
repeat offense, from $500 to $2,500.
- ---- Comment : "repeat offense" - excuse me ? the perpetrator should be
fired outright on the first offense.
Source : La Presse, Sunday Dec. 17, 2000, p. A7, Byline : Andr� No�l
Le CRPQ, une passoire ?
The Centre des Renseigenemnts Policiers du Qu�bec (CRPQ), a sieve ?
The CRPQ contains 6 million files on plaintiffs, relevant witnesses,
suspects, victims, stolen property, gun control, alcohol outlet permits,
security agencies permits, etc. The CRPQ is linked directly to the SAAQ
and CPIC. All police agencies from Qu�bec and CPIC-accredited
organizations (Ontario Provincial Police, Customs and Excise Canada,
Interpol, etc.) have direct access to the CRPQ. SAAQ road inspectors
have access to the CRPQ external mail services to query US databases on
car registrations. Wildlife officers and Hydro-Qu�bec have indirect
access through telephone calls.
Cases of abuse are rarely made public. One case was a S�ret� du Qu�bec
officer driving to work who was cut off by another driver. The SQ
officer noted the license plate of the driver who had told him to get
lost. The SQ officer accessed the CRPQ to identify the driver of the
other car. Two police officers met the driver in question at his work
and try to bring him in to a police station but they were also told to
take a hike. The first SQ officer then proceeded to issue six citations
totaling $750 and 16 demerit points (at 15 points a driver licensed is
revoked and there are severe insurance premiums for a bad driving record
after that). The SQ officer then sent a copy of the citations to the
employer of the driver - the driver happened to be a bus driver.
- ----
Another case of abuse : personal information on 4 police officers (1
RCMP, 1 SQ and 2 Qu�bec municipal officers) was leaked to a criminalized
biker gang.
When questioned about this in the Asembl�e nationale, Public Security
Minister B�gin could only answer he did not know about any of this.
- -----
Comment:
There has been lately a lot of discussion on this list as to whether or
not the Canadian Firearms Center was hacked and to which extent.
Why should organized crime bother with hacking when it can simply
blackmail anyone with CRPQ access (gambling debits, for instance) into
providing the information ? Much easier to find a low-level mole than a
wiz hacker and by that I do not mean a "script kid" who happily
launches a massive "denial of service" attack without even bothering to
wonder why the genius who created the scripts published his work instead
of using it himself.
True, even software giant Micorsoft could not protect itself against
hacking, so the CFC could conceivably be hacked.
However, recent disclosures show the police cannot even protect
information on its own people.
So the first question I have for the CFC is what safeguards are built-in
throughout the information access network on firearms registrations
against unjustified snooping by bona-fide authorized persons - other
than after-the-fact-and-upon-specific-complaint-only discovery - when it
is too late ?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:02:26 -0500
From: John Coupland <c.coupland@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: CFC Special Bulletin for Business #28 Airguns
Hi,
Are they trying to tell us something with this bulletin? The bits
cited below would seem to imply that the customary legal process of
interpretation of the law by the courts has been usurped by the
Minister of Justice. Did I miss something?
John
Marc Mousseau wrote:
>
> Special Bulletin for Business #28 Airguns
>
http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/owners&users/bulletins/special/businesses/bulletin28-en.html
>
- --- snip ---
> * The Minister of Justice is responsible for determining whether airguns
> must be registered.
- --- snip ---
The final determination as to what constitutes
> a firearm for the purposes of licensing and registration lies with the
> Minister of Justice.
- --- snip ---
------------------------------
Date: 17 Dec 2000 06:42:52 -0800
From: Brian Drader <briandrader@canada.com>
Subject: Customs gave me a revolver for Christmas
My M1878 Nagant has found its way home. Readers may remember that the
deactivated antique firearm had been illegally detained by Customs some
weeks
ago. The item was sent to me unannounced in the mail, accompanied by a
single
page letter dated December 12 stating that Canada Post regulations
stipulated
that no dangerous goods could be mailed. While doubtless this is an
important
reminder for those shipping dangerous goods, I wasn't - and Customs must
have
agreed at approximately the same time the letter was drafted, or their
agents
wouldn't have dropped the item back in the mail. One would hope.
Incidentally, at the Brandon Gun Show a CFC quisling told me that 'four or
five people have been arrested lately' for tranporting 'antique firearm'
handguns without transport permits. She was unable to provide specific
examples. I'm leaning toward totally dismissing these comments as the
fevered
fantasies of a troubled and overemployed individual. Can anyone
substantiate
her cla!
im?
Cheers,
Brian
PS Thanks Peter!
------------------------------
End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #560
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