From - Wed Oct 14 15:12:50 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (majordomo@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA16881; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:50:06 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25499; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:12:46 -0600 Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:12:46 -0600 Message-Id: <199810141812.MAA25499@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #639 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 360c873d00006ff1 Cdn-Firearms Digest Wednesday, October 14 1998 Volume 02 : Number 639 In this issue: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #628 DISARMAMENT OF THE WORLD...! Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #628 I.W.A Canada opposes C-68 "Royal Canadian Air Farce." Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #637 Border Crossing with water pistol Re: Toronto Firearms Unit Gun Deals Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #637 Adopting the US constitution in Canada THE 14 FEB 95 MESS To LYN COCKBURN, Calgary Sun VERIFIERS verifiers in Calgary Calgary Sun Letters Re:possession only licence For Sale items in BC more crime in the UK than the US Gun law under fire ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:11:32 -0600 From: lundgard@ccinet.ab.ca Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #628 At 04:53 AM 10/13/98 -0600, you wrote: >> >number of persons who signed on the list that day must be entered. Club >> >member signatures are required. snip >> Dave Tomlinson, NFA -- CLOG: all Conservative or Liberal Ottawa Governments >> >> ------------------------------ > > Dave, I understand this is mostly for city folks but why would anyone of us need >to know who goes to shooting range, how often etc. It's his ammo so who cares. snip >Saipan There has been no explanation of how public safety will be increased or crime reduced by these regulations. WHY are they in criminal code regulations? If a permit is issued to go to a range, the police know an idividual intends to use the range. Jerrold lundgard@ccinet.ab.ca Peace River, Alberta, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:12:06 -0600 From: Jaded Junker Subject: DISARMAMENT OF THE WORLD...! DAILY HIGHLIGHTS Stressing that disarmament lay "at the heart" of United Nations efforts to maintain international peace, Secretary-General Kofi Annan called on the General Assembly committee dealing with arms control issues to "take the lead" in working to rid the world of the menace posed by various types of weapons. In his statement at the opening of the general debate in the Assembly's First (Disarmament and Security) Committee, the Secretary- General welcomed the growing realization around he world of the connection between two central themes of the UN agenda - -- disarmament and development. He also stressed that disarmament must concern itself with small weapons as well as large. The Secretary-General said that in recent years, thousands of civilians, the overwhelming majority of whom were women and children, had been killed or injured by small arms. He cited the 1994 genocide in Rwanda and the recent massacres in the Kosovo Province of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia as examples of these "horrific acts of violence." He saluted, in particular, the moratorium initiated by the Economic Community of West African States on the trade and manufacture of arms, and the recent entry into force of an http://www.un.org/News/dh/latest.htm#5 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:11:37 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #628 > Dave, I understand this is mostly for city folks but why would anyone of us need >to know who goes to shooting range, how often etc. It's his ammo so who cares. >(except the KGB sharpshooters, of course) Maybe this is an ignorant question but is >that some legal requirement? We have shooting range too, but that's more of a >sandpit with a "gate". Compare to other sports shooting has the best safety record >as I can see. No fatal accident (knock on wood), most other sports have some. Phone 1-800-731-4000 and ask for a free copy of the March 1998 Regulations. Dave Tomlinson, NFA -- CLOG: all Conservative or Liberal Ottawa Governments ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:11:16 -0600 From: Phil Olive Subject: I.W.A Canada opposes C-68 >From the I.W.A. National Convention held in Vancouver BC 14 to 17 Sept 1998 Subject: Gun Control Legislation Therefore Be It Resolved: That I.W.A. Canada go on record as being opposed to gun control legislation that requires all firearms be registered, and Be It Further Resolved: That this resolution be forwarded to all NDP Conventions. Convention Action: CONCURRENCE ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:11:11 -0600 From: Peter Kearns Subject: "Royal Canadian Air Farce." In the last "Air Farce" they had a sketch in which "Annie" turned frantic about registering guns, and ended up firing a Blackhawk and a Walther at people offstage, all the while huffing and puffing about "You will register your guns!" Luba Goy did a great job, even to "Frantic Annie's" red suit, and she wheezed just like Annie too.... The CBC are finally airing this type of comic criticism of annie and C68, and it means that OUR message is getting heard and understood..... In the shows last year they were depicting hunters etc.. as illeterate goons.... My how things change. We finally figured out how to counter the lies and crap, and now we are the good guys...... All we have to do is remember NOT to bugger things up...... Peter Kearns Simon says: "We don't need to justify our position anymore, but Wendy and her hippies are having to try and defend theirs....... and they look sillier and sillier....." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:11:54 -0600 From: mred@cujo2.icom.ca (iCOM Subscriber) Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #637 >Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:41:21 -0600 >From: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca >Subject: Out of the Blue letter from Justice Dept !?! > >THE FACTS: >On Monday, september 28th 1998, I received a letter from the Department of >Justice, Canada, postmarked september 25th 1998 and sent from the Ottawa >Post Office with postal counter #1001575. It would appear that you are correct.You have been singled out for "special"treatment. At this point in time your best defence is a good offence.In other words to become more vocal than before so that if and when "it" does happen you can always use the defense of "free speech" and harrassment . Also you have NO choice now as to be more public with your dissertations to keep yourself in the public eye so that they will know when you are being harrassed, ,and or intimidated. Really it is too late to go back now, even if you wanted to. Rest assured that all of us who belong to the NFA are targeted as well, especially those of us who have been most vocal in critisizing the "government " rulers. One thing is for sure, you are not alone!!!One way or the other we are all with you in the same boat.!! Ed.Ontario,Kanada ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:21:53 -0600 From: Paul Meyer Subject: Border Crossing with water pistol With regards to the debate about filling in "Unknown" for most blanks and whether a "reasonably prudent" person should fill in what appears to be obvious (if it says Winchester Model 94 on the barrel, then it probably IS a Win 94...) I think DAT is correct, and filling in "unknown" is the only safe option. The "reasonable man" argument is shot down in the government's own desk manual. I read part of this over the weekend, specifically the part dealing with "replica" firearms. The government's OWN MANUAL says that a person who accidentally crosses the border with a child's toy water pistol, that is black and "looks" like a real gun, will probably be charged, convicted and do jail time. So shoppers, remember to clean out the minivan before you head over to Wal-Mart! Any government that would put me in jail for having a water pistol in my vehicle is going to stick by the letter of the law on these registration certificates. You had better be damn sure that you know if the manufacturer is Winchester, U. S. Repeating Arms, the French company that now "Owns" Winchester and Browning, or one of the Japanese jobbers making commemoratives that USRA is distributing that have the Winchester name on them and is licensed from Olin Corporation. I have a Winchester Model 94 commemorative and I'm not willing to risk a criminal record over my knowledge of the corporate history of "Winchester". Paul Meyer 250-368-2407 pmeyer@hasimons.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:21:57 -0600 From: CILA Subject: Re: Toronto Firearms Unit Gun Deals It must be remembered that the Metro Toronto Firearms Unit "misplaced" 3,000 guns while Mullins was in charge. It seems they learned everything they know about justice from the RCMP. Dave and Peters buddy Simon told me (3,000 guns exported to England and turned in for the $400 per gun amnesty = $120,000.00) - -TB ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:22:03 -0600 From: "Rick Myers" Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #637 to whom it concerns, I am a member of N.F.A. , could you please define authorized owners ......as in till dec 99 to sell to talking about left over stock the day after. I have owned small handguns since before the required date does this mean that I am an authorized owner? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:22:07 -0600 From: "Jean-Francois Avon" Subject: Adopting the US constitution in Canada >Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:56:00 -0600 >From: Charles Stansfield >Subject: Re: Russell Laing's Nightmare: [snip] >I think that Canada should adopt the United States Constitution. >[snip] >the draftors and legislators that produced *our* mewling, >malnourished Constitution and Charter of Rights and Freedoms decided >that too much individual Freedom was not a good thing for Canadians and >their governors. I recall having heard, during a discussion, that when they amended the constitution and drafted the charter of rights, there was much discussion about including property right in the charter, but that in the end, the govt decided to not include it since it would disrupt too much their means to their ends. But that is just gossip I heard from a few law students and teachers... Ciao jfa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:22:14 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: THE 14 FEB 95 MESS 1. C-68's Criminal Code section 84(1) definition of "prohibited firearm" does NOT include any mention of the "14 Feb 95" date which is supposedly the "cutoff" date for .25, .32 and under 4.14"/1045mm barrel length handguns. 2. Therefore, wherever the term "prohibited firearm" is used in C-68's Criminal Code or Firearms Act, it means ANY .25, .32 or under 4.14"/105mm handgun -- by the CC s. 84(1) definition. 3. Firearms Act section 12(6) says only that "a particular INDIVIDUAL (and therefore, not a business) is eligible to hold a licence authorizing the particular individual to possess handguns that have a barrel length equal to or less than 105 mm in length or that are designed or adapted to discharge a ..25 or .32 calibre cartridge AND FOR WHICH ON Feburary 14, 1995 a registration certificate HAD BEEN ISSUED OR APPLIED FOR," but only IF "the particular individual (a) on February 14, 1995, (i) HELD a registration certificate for one or more of those handguns, or (ii) HAD APPLIED FOR a registration certificate that was subsequently issued..." 4. The CFR/FRAS registration system is so riddled with errors and omissions that it cannot possibly say whether or not a "particular individual" qualifies under FA s. (6)(a)(i) or (ii). 5. There is a second requirement: Under FA s. 12(6)(b), the "particular individual" must also have "on the commencement day (the day C-68 comes into force) have held a registration certificate...for one or more of those handguns." 6. Note that there is no attempt to outlaw the FIREARM if the firearm was not registered as of 14 Feb 95, except for the murky wording of FA s. 12(6) - -- which MAY indicate that CFR/FRAS will try to claim that the definition of "prohibited firearm" in CC s. 84(1) is incomplete, and the words of FA s. 12(6) must be included AS IF they were part of the definition in CC s. 84(1). 9. It seems most unlikly that a judge would rule that way, but we will have to wait and see. 10. Faced with this mess, Idle Annie McLellan's answer was to allow a period of one year after the latest "commencement day" -- 01 Dec 98 -- to allow for the sorting out of the unholy mess detailed above. She did that under the powers vested in her by CC s. 117.14. Simon says, "WHY is C-68 such a mess? WHY does the Department of Justice hire so many incompetent lawyers? And WHY did our Prime Minister appoint such an apparently incompetent person to be Minister of Justice?" Dave Tomlinson, NFA -- CLOG: all Conservative or Liberal Ottawa Governments ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:27:26 -0600 From: ab133@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: To LYN COCKBURN, Calgary Sun mailto:callet@sunpub.com The reasons people don't fear registering their cars are that no one started banning certain models in the 1970s and no one said it would be a criminal offence to simply possess a car without a licence. Note that you don't have to register the car(s) you own. If I only had to register a firearm to take it hunting (and failure to register weren't criminal) I wouldn't complain so much. The Minister of Justice can ban all firearms and ammunition she thinks are unsuitable for hunting in Canada. Would you object to a law allowing the Minister of Transport to ban all cars he thought were "unreasonable" if 20% of the cars once on the road had already been banned? Would you support a law allowing police to search your garage or any place your car was stored? Would you support a law stating only the owner of a car can get gasoline for it, can drive it, and that the driver must get permits to take the car to specific places if it is capable of exceeding the speed limit or has a large gas tank or has all-wheel drive? I'd LOVE to have gun laws that were equivalent to the rules for cars. It would be a lot more sensible! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:41:51 -0600 From: Bob Lickacz Subject: VERIFIERS Subject: verifiers in Calgary Re the verifiers in three Edmonton stores. Are there any like that in Calgary? Wholesale Sports has a Calgary location. I'd like to know what the status is here. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:58:37 -0600 From: Mark L Horstead Subject: Calgary Sun Letters >From the 13 October Calgary Sun: RE: WHAT is this 80%? Letter of the Day, Oct. 2. This surely isn't all there is to a democracy. How about our right to ownership of private property? How about our right to live in a society where we can live in peace and not have to worry about imprisonment? This Bill C-68 is wrong -- 100% wrong. This bill is morally corrupt. As a Canadian citizen, I have not only a right but a duty to dissent, yes even to the extent of breaking this law. Never will I give up the right to live in a society where my family and myself can live in peace and not have to live in fear of imprisonment Jack Skierka Lundbreck (A frighteningly bad law.) I ENJOYED Licia Corbella's views in her Oct. 4 column on C-68 and the SIN fiasco. In case you don't already know, FRAS, the federal government restricted weapon registry has been around since the mid-1930s, and, guess what? It is as competently administered as the SIN "registry." I understand that about 45% of the FRAS database is inaccurate. I can state from personal experience that FRAS can screw up records by themselves and never be able to find or fix their error. Jim Davies (After years in the making, they couldn't even start it on time.) Mark L Horstead If it saves just one person from voting lieberal, it's worth it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:58:42 -0600 From: Norm Frei Subject: Re:possession only licence >Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 04:54:37 -0600 >From: "Alan Harper" >Subject: Re: Possession-Only Licence > >If my memory serves me correctly, the possession only license is only good >until Jan 1, 2001. After that date, you must have the regular FL, which >includes acquisition. Possssion only licences won't be issued after 2001 but those who got one before that date can renew them every five years. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:03:59 -0600 From: "Steven Storch" Subject: For Sale items in BC FOR SALE 1 - .22 RUGER MK II TARGET PISTOL $ 325.00 1 - 9mm COLT COMBAT COMMANDER $ 500.00 1 - 9mm P-38 WALTHER $ 250.00 PLUS 9mm AMMO. + EXTRA MAGAZINES !! PHONE (604) 291-1961 and ask for Werner Thank you! Steven Storch President B. C. Target Sports Association Box 496 Kamloops, B. C. / CANADA V2C 2L2 Website: www.bctsa.bc.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 20:57:20 -0600 (CST) From: Murray Grismer Subject: more crime in the UK than the US PUBLICATION Times Colonist (Victoria) DATE Mon 12 Oct 1998 SECTION/CATEGORY News PAGE NUMBER A1 / Front HEADLINE: Britain more crime-ridden than U.S., study shows LONDON -- You are more likely to be mugged in England than in the United States, says a new crime study reported with some consternation in Britain on Sunday. The study by a Cambridge University professor and a statistician from the U.S. Department of Justice said crime rates for serious offences such as assault, burglary, robbery, and motor vehicle theft are all higher in England and Wales than in America. Rape and murder rates are still higher in the United States, but Britain is gaining ground, said the Sunday Times, which reported the study at the top of its front page. It said Britain may have tougher gun laws, but the United States has longer prison sentences. ``Common sense says America is the most crime-ridden country on earth while Britain is an oasis of peace and tranquillity,'' the Sunday Times said in an editorial. ``Common sense is wrong. ``We urgently need to re-examine our cosy assumptions about law and order.'' The Mail on Sunday reprinted some of the study's findings. They said that in 1995, the last year for which complete statistics were available on both sides of the Atlantic, there were 20 assaults per 1,000 people in England and Wales but just 8.8 in the U.S. The rate of robbery is now 1.4 times higher in England and Wales than in the United States, and the British burglary rate is nearly double America's, the report said. A spokeswoman for Britain's Home Office said officials are aware of the study. ``We are publishing our own crime statistics on Tuesday, which will reflect the state of crime in the U.K.,'' the spokeswoman said. ILLUSTRATION: Color Photo: Lorna Lambert, for The Times Colonist / Robbery rate in England is 1.4 times that of the United States. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:12:17 -0600 From: someone@some.net Subject: Gun law under fire Wednesday, October 14, 1998 Justice minister says gun owners should delay registering firearms By Mark Wyatt LeaderStar News REGINA - Saskatchewan gun owners will shell out more money if they follow the Romanow government's advice to await the outcome of a Supreme Court appeal before registering their firearms, says a federal Justice Department spokesperson. Saskatchewan Justice Minister John Nilson told reporters Tuesday the proposed federal firearms registry may not withstand a Supreme Court appeal, so gun owners should hold off until the case is decided. "I think they should wait until the Supreme Court has dealt with this, because the Supreme Court may come down and say that the federal government has overstepped the boundary as it relates to the registration scheme," he said. The new gun control registry opens for business on Dec. 1 and gun owners have until 2001 to license themselves and until 2003 to license all firearms. Pierre Gratton, press secretary to federal Justice Minister Anne McLellan, said there's nothing wrong with what Nilson is recommending, but gun owners should be aware of the consequences. The cost of a firearms ownership licence starts at $10 and climbs to $45 on Dec. 1, 1999. Anyone who registers after Aug. 31, 2000 will pay $60. [so get a licence at $10 and register the guns later for $18 instead of $10... --me] The one-time gun registration fee will cost $10 for the first year, $14 as of Dec. 1, 1999, and $18 as of July 1, 2000. "Nilson can do what he wants. If he wants to encourage them to delay, that's fine. It won't upset the system. But he is encouraging gun owners to pay more. The incentives exist now so they will pay less if they pay early," Gratton said in an interview from Ottawa. "But gun owners will be given a long period in order to comply with the law and they can register any time they want to in that period. It's up to them." Gratton said he's confident many gun owners will disregard Nilson's advice and noted that 200 of Canada's three [7!] million firearms owners were so anxious to take part they sent their forms in early. Wendy Cukier, president of the Coalition for Gun Control, said Nilson is taking a gamble on the outcome of the appeal and "I think he will lose." She said the Romanow government should spend less energy fighting gun control and pay more attention to the number of Saskatchewan children that are killed by guns. She said Saskatchewan leads the country when it comes to gun-related deaths involving children under 14. [obviously if you had fewer cars you'd have fewer car accidents...] On Friday, Premier Roy Romanow announced Saskatchewan will join the Alberta government in its appeal of an Alberta court ruling that upheld the federal licensing and registration system. The case is expected to go before the country's highest court before the end of its June 25 spring sitting. It takes the court an average of five months to release its judgments. Nilson said he will ask McLellan to delay implementation of the registry until after the Supreme Court renders its decision. "If the court determines that Bill C-68 is unconstitutional, as our government has maintained, then all of the expenditures which will have been made by the federal government are for nothing - a waste of taxpayers' money," Nilson said. However, Gratton said one of the fundamental principles of lawmaking is that legislation is assumed to be constitutionally valid unless the courts rule otherwise. If governments had to postpone laws every time one was challenged in the courts, the country would be ungovernable, he said. "The principle applies to this act and it applies to every other act. I'm sure it's a principle the Saskatchewan minister also is familiar with and also believes in. I'm sure he would certainly believe in it when it pertains to legislation he's passed." http://www.saskstar.sk.ca/news/frompageone.shtml mailto:spnews@saskstar.sk.ca ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #639 **********************************