From owner-cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Tue Aug 5 22:31:17 1997 From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #932 Content-Length: 24672 X-Lines: 642 Status: RO Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, August 5 1997 Volume 01 : Number 932 In this issue: Re: Wondered if you could help? Re: Just in case you were wondering why logic doesn't work with short barreled shotguns Re: Non-restricted firearms in Ontario and BC Re: CFC comment on democracy and courts Re: The Firearms Act versus the justice system Re: Rifles Re: Winnipeg now Canada's murder capital... re:Correcting legal comments Re: Full Auto Shoot Allan Rock Turkey Shoot Winnipeg ranges Re: Rifle Information Re: Alberta Full-auto shoot. reviews and other things of interest editorial ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 04:55:39 -0600 From: kdesolla@cyberus.ca (Keith P. de Solla) Subject: Re: Wondered if you could help? >From: "Patrick Mowatt" >To: kdesolla@cyberus.ca >Subject: Re: Wondered if you could help? >Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:44:14 PDT > > > > >To whom it may concern: > >I am writing a series of editorials for my local paper in an attempt to >enlighten people as to the true evils of C-68. I would greatly >appreciate it if anyone out there has any documented information on >law-abiding gun owners being hassled or mistreated by law-enforcement >agencies. Please post them to: >Telperion@hotmail.com >Thank you in advance! > >Pat Mowatt >New Brunswick, Canada Keith P. de Solla, P.Eng - NFA Field Officer kdesolla@cyberus.ca http://www.cyberus.ca/~kdesolla/eohc.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 04:55:42 -0600 From: kdesolla@cyberus.ca (Keith P. de Solla) Subject: Re: Just in case you were wondering why logic doesn't work with urban people . . . I think the decline of western civilization probably started when we managed to circumvent Darwin's theory of evolution, and saved certain individuals (such as the authors of the quotes below) from becoming predator food. Why is it one doesn't need a license or education to have kids, but a license is needed for everything else. (Ooops. now the government will try that too) These quotes remind me of the column in American Handgunner that describe what I like to call "stupid criminal tricks". (Just so we have firearm content in this post :-) ) >Some actual comments left last year on Forest Service registration >sheets and comment cards by backpackers completing wilderness camping trips > > >>>"Instead of a permit system or regulations, the Forest Service needs to >>>reduce worldwide population growth to limit the number of visitors to >>>wilderness." >>> > >>>"Ban walking sticks in wilderness. Hikers that use walking sticks are >>>more likely to chase animals." >>> > >>>"Too many bugs and leeches and spiders and spider webs. Please spray >>>the wilderness to rid the area of these pests." >>> > >>>"The coyotes made too much noise last night and kept me awake. Please >>>eradicate these annoying animals." >>> > >>>"Need more signs to keep area pristine." >>> > >>>"The places where trails do not exist are not well marked." >>> >And finally: > >>>"Too many rocks in the mountains." > >Walk softly and join Reform >You too can speak for Canada! > >John Fowler >http://www2.magma.ca/~jfowler/ > > > > Keith P. de Solla, P.Eng - NFA Field Officer kdesolla@cyberus.ca http://www.cyberus.ca/~kdesolla/eohc.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 04:55:41 -0600 From: SharpshotX@aol.com Subject: short barreled shotguns I am presently in the market for a (bite-your-tounge) home defense security type 12 guage shotgun. Is it possible to purchase a shotgun with a barrel length less than 18"? Does the overall length still have to over 28"? Is the riot shotgun still the best choice to defend loved ones in the middle of the night? Any input and advice would be greatly appreciated. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 04:55:43 -0600 From: kdesolla@cyberus.ca (Keith P. de Solla) Subject: Re: Non-restricted firearms in Ontario and BC > >Ontario: >I'll be moving to Ontario from the US, and I want to make sure things go >smoothly with regards to my firearms (all non-restricted). Do I need anything >other than my FAC to transport, operate, and carry my firearms? A recent >post about requiring a hunting license (in addition to a FAC) in BC worried >me. > Ontario has no firearms license of its own. You only require the appropriate hunting license to hunt. Target shooting requires extra permits only in the case of restricted firearms. An FAC is ONLY a permit to acquire firearms. An FAC is not needed to transport or operate or own or store firearms. - -keith Keith P. de Solla, P.Eng - NFA Field Officer kdesolla@cyberus.ca http://www.cyberus.ca/~kdesolla/eohc.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 04:55:45 -0600 From: kdesolla@cyberus.ca (Keith P. de Solla) Subject: Re: CFC comment on democracy and courts snip > > I have not heard of any safeguards against a mail-in card lost in the mail >system, resulting in the owner forgetting about waiting for a certificate >that will never come. Obviously, it won't be an acceptable defense to >say:`"I did, I did, I did mail the stupid card. I just forgot to ask why the >paper work did not come back." For this kind of gun control to work, it will >be up to the delinquent gun owner to prove his card was lost in the mails ... > In my opinion there won't be any safeguards. So your options are limited to: * mail the stupid card & hope for the best * send the card via registered mail or courier * don't send any cards - -keith (note to the spooks: I am NOT encouraging non-compliance with legislation that may become law in the future) Keith P. de Solla, P.Eng - NFA Field Officer kdesolla@cyberus.ca http://www.cyberus.ca/~kdesolla/eohc.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 04:55:47 -0600 From: kdesolla@cyberus.ca (Keith P. de Solla) Subject: Re: The Firearms Act versus the justice system > >Dear Mr. Glasgow: > >Thank you for your comments with respect to my response to you. > >As my role here is an informational one, I am not prepared to >argue with you how policy on firearms is driven, nor can I make >any comment with respect to the decisions made by particular >police officers. I would however, be interested in knowing the >source for your comments with respect to your contention that >firearm offences almost never result in convictions. I am also >uncertain of your basis for saying that most judges do not >favour mandatory minimums. > Well, I've been told by a lawyer who works in criminal law that judges do not like mandatory sentences, because it removes flexibility in sentencing. - -keith Keith P. de Solla, P.Eng - NFA Field Officer kdesolla@cyberus.ca http://www.cyberus.ca/~kdesolla/eohc.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 04:55:37 -0600 From: kdesolla@cyberus.ca (Keith P. de Solla) Subject: Re: Rifles snip > >Also: I always believed the military rounds were higher pressures to >reliably cycle firearms once they got a build up of dirt/crap in them... >This is the reason most civilians guns that fire military cartridges >have a warning on them, is it not?? > I've not seen that, but you'll find reloading manuals often tell you do reduce loads if military brass (i.e. IVI 7.62mm instead of Win .308) because the walls are thicker and higher pressures may result. - -keith Keith P. de Solla, P.Eng - NFA Field Officer kdesolla@cyberus.ca http://www.cyberus.ca/~kdesolla/eohc.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 04:55:49 -0600 From: kdesolla@cyberus.ca (Keith P. de Solla) Subject: Re: Winnipeg now Canada's murder capital... >At 06:43 PM 7/31/97 -0600, you wrote: >> Falling crime rates don't ease public fear >> >>Most people still feel criminal justice system is failing them >> >>Jim Bronskill >>The Ottawa Citizen >> > > >You give credance to the lie every time you call it the 'criminal JUSTICE >system'. It is a legal system, nothing more eh? > A system for giving justice for the criminals, yes? I think its an appropriate title. - -keith Keith P. de Solla, P.Eng - NFA Field Officer kdesolla@cyberus.ca http://www.cyberus.ca/~kdesolla/eohc.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:18:02 -0600 From: "Wayne Salhany" Subject: re:Correcting legal comments I guess I missed the qualifiers here... I was not providing any legal opinion... I am not a lawyer nor a judge. I WAS PROVIDING INFORMATION PRESENTED TO ME BY THE CFC and was PROVIDING MY OWN COMMENT. Please note... my posting was not a positive one... it was to raise awareness of the stupidity of the whole firearms registration system. What I have found is that (DAT aside as he is very aware) most of us require a slap in the face occasionally to keep us on track... By trying to collect some of the stupidity together, I was trying to do that. However, thanks Dave for putting this posting in realistic terms... That slap smarts even more. In message "Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #931", David A. Tomlinson writes: > In Wayne Salhany's recent posting, there are one minor and one major error. > > The inheritance of .25, .32 and short-barrelled handguns data indicates that > the inheritance WILL succeed. That is HIGHLY unlikely. Each transferance > by inheritance will have to be approved by the Chief Firearms Officer [CFO], > and, given our experience with Chief Provincial Firearms Officers [CPFOs], > it is VERY unlikely that the approval will be given. Actually, I was trying to indicate it WILL NOT succeed given the very limited potential allowed even given an optimistic view. Interestingly enough, the CFC never mentioned this aspect. > References: C-68 Criminal Code section [CC s.] 84(1) "transfer" says > "transfer" means "deliver." Firearms Act section [FA s.] 27 requires the > CFO to "(a) verify...(i) whether the [inheritor] holds a license...(b)...to > determine whether the...firearm is appropriate [for the purpose the new > owner wants it for, and] (c) DECIDE WHETHER TO APPROVE THE TRANSFER." > > In simple language, the CFO has all the authority needed to block any such > inheritance -- and, on the basis of experience with CPFOs, will USE it. Nor did the CFC mention this aspect... Actually, my point was, that even taking the optimistic view was not reasonable... a realistic view is far less so. > > He says that, where the date of manufacture is in dispute, "the issue will > be...left to the Canadian Firearms Registry to determine." > > That is WRONG. The Registry has NO such authority. Actually I did not say that... The CFC did... I should have quoted the information passed back to me. How the CFC decided that the Canadian Firearms Registry has authority is beyond me. > > One of the worst problems with the firearms control legislation, now and > getting FAR worse when C-68 comes into force, is that bureaucrats ASSUME > that they have the authority to make decisions in any area where the law is > vague or equivocal. That is WRONG. They do NOT, unless the legislation > specifically GIVES them that authority. > > Where NO official or body is specified as having the authority to INTERPRET > the law, only a JUDGE in a court of CRIMINAL LAW can tell you what the law > means. > > Where a JUDGE rules, that ruling applies ONLY to that case. It may set a > precedent (for the province, if the court is above provincial court level) > or for the entire nation (if the Supreme Court of Canada rules), but NO ONE > ELSE has the authority to say what the law MEANS. > > Where illegal interpretations ARE made by officials or bodies like the CFC, > CFR or Minister, the NFA fights those interpretations in court -- and often > WINS. Glad you stated it. Wayne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:18:03 -0600 From: Gary Chambers Subject: Re: Full Auto Shoot In response to Peter Cronhelm's statements: You are right, when it comes to the shooting sports, and many other things, Alberta is the place to be. The Southern full-auto shoot is in Wardlow, which is about 35 kilometers north of Brooks, which is, in turn, an hour or so east of Calgary. I was at the Northern shoot in July, and would like to go the Southern, but I don't know if I can afford it, or if I can get a ride. Carless in Edmonton, GC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:17:55 -0600 From: "Alfred.Hovdestad@usask.ca" Subject: Allan Rock Turkey Shoot Allan Rock's birthday is coming up at the end of this month. How many clubs are participating in the first annual Allan Rock Turkey Shoot? - -- Alfred Hovdestad -- Member of -- Saskatchewan Responsible Firearm Owners Saskatchewan Bowhunters Association National Firearms Association Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation Reform Party of Canada CRIME CONTROL, NOT MORE GUN CONTROL! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:54:16 -0600 From: lhonke@mb.sympatico.ca Subject: Winnipeg ranges Can anyone provide info on a range in/near Winnipeg, MB? I've moved from Edmonton; a range there had a deal where you could shoot anything from their used handgun collection for a nominal fee and ammo purchase. I'm looking for the same kind of thing here in Winnipeg. Thanks, Les lhonke@mb.sympatico.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:54:14 -0600 From: Peter Kearns Subject: Re: Rifle Information The reply to the comments by a correspondent regarding moly coating may lead some to the wrong impression. **ONLY** bullets are moly coated when using the NECO process. It is a fairly new idea that reduces the friction of the bullet as it passes down the bore, of mostly rifles. The bullets are cleaned, tumbled in a stainless steel shot and molybdenum disulphide compound then after coating are also tumbled in carnauba wax to prevent the coating from being removed during handling. (Moly is the messiest most insidious stuff you ever handled, and quite happily coats you, your clothes and your wifes nice furnishings in a uniform black colour. That is why the carnauba wax is used, as a sealer). The benefits of coating bullets is as follows, (from personal experience, and experimentation). Felt recoil is drastically reduced using coated bullets, (less friction). You will see that the grooves left in the fired projectile, (if you recover one) are much shallower than those in an uncoated one. This appears to be caused by the bullet "upsetting" less due to reduced friction, and not dragging so much of the copper from the bullet jacket. The added advantage is that as the bullet travels down the bore it "impact plates" the moly into the surface. This "plating appears to be unaffected by heat and will actually reduce the friction of uncoated bullets fired later. Accuracy is not improved, although some of my benchrest friends claim that they "feel" their groups are tighter. The main benefit is that the need for cleaning is reduced. The carbon, unburned powder, metal fouling etc... does not stick to the bore after firing moly coated bullets, and extends the cleaning intervals.....by a lot!! I shoot very low drag bullets at high speed at varmints, and at long range paper targets too. With my rifles I found that I could extend my cleaning interval from every 8-10 shots to 20-24. I found the same to be true with my benchrest rifles, and as you may imagine, I don't take any risks with an expensive bench rest barrel, or those on my target rifles. Military match shooters are also finding that the coating benefits them. Where cleaning in between relays is not possible, the competiors are finding that accuracy does not deteriorate as it did using uncoated bullets. Again, they mostly say there is no increase in accuracy. I also use moly when neck sizing my cartridge cases. It is easy, does not need cleaning off like the various luricants, and a little goes a long way. It would be unwise, (really stupid!!) to attempt to use moly to prevent jams and galling in a firearm, by coating the cartridge cases. (A good gunsmith would be the right way to go there). We import and sell Berger bullets, and our customers really like the moly coated ones. One customer reported that firing the 190 grain very low drag .308 bullet from his 300 win Mag long range target gun was "quite pleasant", much like shooting a mild 155 grainer that was uncoated. (Coating adds between $4-$6 per hundred to the cost depending on bullet weight/calibre, but the customers who use them believe it to be money well spent). As some of you who load shotshells know, graphite is used to coat the lead shot. this reduces friction, prevents the shot 'clumping" together, and also allows the shot to flow freely through the loading presses....... wonder where NECO got their idea from?????? -- Peter Kearns http://www.firearms.ab.ca/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:10:18 -0600 From: SBKracer Subject: Re: Alberta Full-auto shoot. I spoke to the organizers last night and the range will be open saturday for testing and maintenance with the actual auto shoot happening on sunday starting around noon. As the range is accredited they are encouraging people to bring their own weapons (legally of course). Apparently the range goes all the way out to 500 meters. Think I'll bring my muzzle loader just to provide an insight to the future of shooting sports in Canada. My first firearms were modern military style rifles. Then came C-17 and I went to bolt action rifles. With C-68 I am down to single shot bolt actions and muzzle loaders. As I seem to be regressing back into the history of firearms I wonder what's next.........cannons? Peter Cronhelm ZX-7 Carbon Fibre Racing Machine SBKracer YSR/YZ80 The Little Beast "I'm not the man you say I am, not radical nor mentally deranged." - -Sons of Freedom- "Without the threat of death, what's the point in living at all!" - -Marilyn Manson- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:10:21 -0600 From: mtoma Subject: reviews and other things of interest Some time ago I finished reading Rinkers "Understanding Ballistics". Mulberry House Publishing Co. PO Box 575 Corydon IN 47112 ISBN 0-9645598-1-1 For the beginner it is an excellent piece of work, explaining in detail every facet of ballistics. For the more knowledgable shootist you dive into quite serious mathmatics figuring out all kinds of things. Virtually every aspect of internal, external and terminal ballistics is covered. There are quite a few anecdotes of history thrown in and an easy down to earth writing style prevails. Though I thought at times the author was a little condescending. The force of gravity really does change at different elevations and fortunately my long range coyote rifle does shoot far enough to have to figure the earths rotation into my trajectory. Of course most of us have ballistic programs that figure the simple more required tasks for us, this book will tell you why. Leaning over the counter at Wholesale Sports in Edmonton where I work part time to finance my ever increasing ammo expenditure, I have occasion to meet new people, most of them interesting. I met a chap from England last Friday. According to him, the gov't is paying for all the "registered" guns being turned in, but not great amounts. Of course numerous handgun ranges are being closed and the owners and employees are out of work. Did you know that in jolly old England, you must sign a register if you buy a knife over 2.5-3 inches in length. Did you know that you must sign for a hacksaw blade. My friend was drooling over some of the hunting knives on display but said he would never get it past customs. Small folders were ok, but large fixed blades are deadly weapons only in the eyes of the police. (of course 3/4 of the police are not armed with a gun is why). Also, 4 to 5 times as many police end up in hospital with injuries in England than the USA. A sidearm is the ultimate authority. The animal rights activists in England are extremely strong and well financed. A local millionaire was bankrolling one group out to stop all hunting with hounds. When the sportsman assoc. tried to take this radical group to court for harrasment, the group disbanded. Make no mistake, the anti hunters are as much a threat as the anti gunners. Bootleg FBI Sniper Manual available for $12.50Cdn, check or MO. M. Toma 139 Creston Place Edmonton, AB. T5A-1X4 Besides being available no where else, this 70 page book covers quite a bit of ground. It is packed with information on ballistics, procedures, marksmanship and more. Get yours today. Check out the homesite of Gungames Magazine. If you have not seen this magazine before you should get a copy. The format is pure shooting sports, and has lately been featuring celebrity shooters on their covers. Barbara Mandrell last issue, newly elected NRA First Vice President Charlton Heston on this months. The message is simple, guns are fun, and some very famous people enjoy guns. Did you know that Steven Spielberg is reputed to have one of the biggest gun collections in Calif, but keeps it secret. Heston says there are more closet gunowners in Hollywood than closet homosexuals. Besides covering all the big money action gun sports, IPSC, 3 Gun, Steel,sporting clays, cowboy action and others, there are in depth interviews with famous shooters or gun industry leaders. Also some fascinating coverage of the early days of shooting in Hollywood. You will not find headlines describing the latest manstopping loads or any hunting. The idea is to get the non shooting public aware that guns are not politically incorrect. The news in the latest issue is encouraging for shooting in the USA. I hope we enjoy a spill over here in Canada. If your MP is sitting on the fence over gun control or is anti gun, send him a copy of this magazine. Sean Connery, alias Bond, one of my favorite actors is doing the voice over for a gov't anti gun ad in England. The ad, shown in over 1000 movie theaters starts with a man loading a .22 handgun. Connery reads, It is said a total ban on handguns would take away innocent pleasure from thousands of people. The man with the gun empties the .22 devasting a human shaped target. Connery than says; is this more or less pleasure than watching your child grow up. What a hypocrit!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:10:20 -0600 From: mtoma Subject: editorial I managed to catch a bit of the news tonight, something I chastise myself for. It usually leaves me upset because I fail to understand why potentially intelligent people fall for the looks and tones of concern shown by news anchors, especially the women, whenever something deemed not good for you is highlighted. It seems some shots were fired in SE Edmonton last night, police were called. A partially expended roll?? or plastic cylinder of blanks for a starter pistol was found. I swear the news anchor, Lynda Steele, conveyed through tone and acting, that a Hells Angels turf war was in progress. A starter pistol for gods sake. And a recent surge in SeaDoo accidents in Ontario has prompted calls for licensing, safety courses, ad nauseum. Reminds me of the concern last winter over snowmobile accidents and similar calls for legislation to save us from ourselves. Regarding the snowmobiles, a dealer told me that there were record sales of the snow death machines last winter, and almost record snowfall. This means more people with the machines and more hours spent riding them. Wow, an increase in accidents. Some observations, has anyone bothered to explain to the people causing the hue and cry that cars have been registered, people licensed and still they die by the thousands on the road. It is obvious that the sheeple believe that laws and regulations are the answer to all of society's problems. Laws are made to define crime, not prevent it. And of course some transgressions should not be crimes. A great deal of C-68 for example. Unfortunately, the "useful idiots", (Lenin's term) have the ear of the media and are funded by the gov't, and donations rain in from the psuedo philanthropists of the well meaning but dumb and ignorant. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #932 **********************************