This probably won't help much, but I have recently seen the same number quoted in Gun Week. The Sept 23 issue reprints an article by Don Feder on page 3. In one paragraph he writes: "In 1992, the murder rate in Britain (with a 6% non-white population) was 7.4 per 100,000. In the United States, the murder rate was 9.3. But exclude black and Hispanic perpetrators and our homicide rate falls to 5.1 per 100,000." From fap-approval@world.std.com Mon Sep 26 13:01:13 1994 From: skeeter@skatter.usask.ca (Skeeter Abell-Smith) Subject: Re: G. Britain murder rate To: fap@world.std.com Content-Length: 863 Status: RO X-Lines: 20 } swest writes: } >As I posted a few days ago, there is a murder rate for GB } >published somewhere in the economist for 1990 of 7.4:100,000. } >My microfilm search has lasted 2 hours now without producing } >that exact reference. [...] } } From Dick@ccgate.dragonsys.com: } This probably won't help much, but I have recently seen the same } number quoted in Gun Week. The Sept 23 issue reprints an article } by Don Feder on page 3. In one paragraph he writes: } } "In 1992, the murder rate in Britain (with a 6% non-white } population) was 7.4 per 100,000. In the United States, the murder } rate was 9.3. But exclude black and Hispanic perpetrators and our } homicide rate falls to 5.1 per 100,000." I wonder if Mr Feder meant "the isle of Great Britain" (England, Scotland, and Wales) _or_ "the United Kindom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". From fap-approval@world.std.com Tue Sep 27 02:42:14 1994 From: king robin b To: fap@world.std.com Subject: Re: G. Britain murder rate Status: RO Content-Length: 439 X-Lines: 10 >In the U.S., the murder rate was 9.3. But exclude black and hispanic >perps and our rate falls to 5.1 per 100,000. Actually, that article *included* hispanics with whites. The black murder rate is about 49 per 100,000, the hispanic rate is about 14 per 100,000, and the WHITE rate is only about 3 per 100,000. Factor out black and hispanic committed murders, and America has a lower homicide rate than many European countries! Robin From fap-approval@world.std.com Tue Sep 27 08:27:20 1994 From: Rachel Subject: Re: G. Britain murder rate To: Firearms And Politics Status: RO Content-Length: 1000 X-Lines: 26 Re the murder rates: Homicide in Great Britain: Does not include Ireland Does not include what we classify as "justifiable homicides" Does not include Terrorism. Our statistics: Include "justifiable homicides" Include Terrorism Include all of the 50 states. If we remove the justifiable homicides (self-defense, cops blowing us away, etc.), remove terrorism (not too many here, but I'm trying to be accurate), and look at this *proportionally*, what do we get? I did this with an anti-gunner I met in a Subway. I had him speechless for at least 30 seconds while he munched on this new perspective on statistic analysis. I don't think I converted him, but at least I made him think. Rachel =========================================================================== = mestetsr@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu = NRA member. SCA member. Libertarian. = = = My FBI file must be getting big. = =========================================================================== From fap-approval@world.std.com Tue Sep 27 09:33:03 1994 To: fap@world.std.com Subject: Re: G. Britain murder rate From: Chris BeHanna Status: RO Content-Length: 514 X-Lines: 20 In message <199409271413.AA02239@world.std.com>, Rachel writes: > >Re the murder rates: > >Homicide in Great Britain: >Does not include Ireland >Does not include what we classify as "justifiable homicides" >Does not include Terrorism. Does it include suicides? Ours does (at least, the FBI "killed by use of a gun" numbers do). Best, Chris BeHanna NJ-RKBA List Maintainer behanna@syl.nj.nec.com kore wa NEC no iken de gozaimasen. Why is Lon Horiuchi still breathing? From fap-approval@world.std.com Tue Sep 27 10:50:05 1994 X-Ns-Transport-Id: 08003700675985D8323D From: "DUS.WBST845@Xerox.com".Wbst845@xerox.com Subject: U.S. homicide definition v. GB To: fap@world.std.com Importance: Normal Status: RO Content-Length: 2111 X-Lines: 46 Henry, >> I don't think it has to be 'illegal' to be homocide - I've read that 'homocide' constitutes all killings (including legal killings by police and civilians in self-defense) and that the illegal ones are 'murder'.<< I think this needs to be explained. You're correct. Homicide by definition is the killing of another human being without respect to legal status. Murder, by common definition, is the "unlawful killing of one human being by another, especially with premeditated malice." (The American Heritage Dioctionary). However, the primary source of crime statistics in the United States are those from the Department of Justice (DOJ) as compiled in the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, (FBI-UCR) and the most often used yardstick of criminal homicide is what the FBI-UCR refers to as "Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter," which is defined as "the willful (nonnegligent) killing of one human being by another." This FBI-UCR offense classification DOES NOT include deaths caused by "negligence, suicide, or accident" nor "justifiable homicides." The DOJ does sometimes publish another version of "firearm-related violent crime, homicide, and firearm-related homicide" which includes murder and nonnegligent manslaughter as well as "certain homicides later ruled as self-defense and other justifiable homicides" (see Table 3.126, Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics). The Vital Statistics of the United States, another common source for homicide statistics and published by the National Center for Health Statistics, usually compiles the total amount of homicides irrespective of legal status. >> Some British posters on t.p.g. have denied the existence of this classification. So it would be helpful to have a citation from a British official report showing the existence of this and defining it.<< Well, I guess I'm not surprised. The fact that Brits deny this doesn't mean that the distinction does not exist. Equally, without firm evidence, it appears incumbent upon US to prove it. This subject most certainly deserves investigation. Regards, Dusty Kramer DUS.WBST845@Xerox.com