Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!ames!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!uvaarpa!clem!clem!news From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: DC Murders Date: 14 Jul 1993 12:12:29 GMT Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc. Lines: 34 Distribution: world Message-ID: <220t7dINN59e@clem.handheld.com> References: <1993Jul13.005645.3702@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: dale.handheld.com In article <1993Jul13.005645.3702@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes: > In article <2951273732.5.p00302@psilink.com> "Julius Chang" writes: > >In 1992, there were 452 murders in DC. The population was > >about 600,000, giving a rate of about 75 per 100,000. > > >Alexandria, VA, a city about 5 miles southwest of DC had > >four murders in 1992. Its population was about 110,000 > >or about 3.6 per 100,000. > > It would be fairer to compare Washington with Baltimore: The populations > are close, etc... If memory serves, the homicide rate there is > around 45 per 100,000. I think the Alexandria comparison is valid, it's really an extension of DC, in direct contact with DC's borders, and with a quite mixed population. The contrast is striking, I've been to both cities probably hundreds of times. Alexandria is in the state of choice for the gun runners, and should be quite violent if all else is equal. Baltimore is a quite different city by character than DC or Alexandria, and with much stricter gun control than Alexandria. > > Frank Crary > CU Boulder Jim -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim De Arras - WA4ONG | "Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. NRA,ILA | it is a force, like fire a dangerous servant jmd@handheld.com | and a terrible master." -- George Washington Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!ames!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!world!news.bu.edu!transfer.stratus.com!sw.stratus.com!cdt From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: Bad Example Date: 19 Nov 1993 00:08:06 GMT Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc. Lines: 50 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2ch2p6$8m6@transfer.stratus.com> References: <2cgupf$s0t@pith.uoregon.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com In article <2cgupf$s0t@pith.uoregon.edu>, davidw@cie-2.uoregon.edu (David Weingarten) writes: > Somehow, using Washington DC as an example of gun control not working is > like using Monmouth, Oregon as an example of a "dry town" not working. > (Mind you, I'm NOT supporting prohibition in any way, shape or form, this > is just for the sake of example. Prohibition didn't work on a large > scale, either, but any intelligent person can make alcohol; it's a little > harder to make a gun) Monmouth is supposed to be an entirely alcohol-free > town. It is the site of Western Oregon State College, which is supposed > to be (obviously) a dry campus. Does it work? Of course not! Alcohol > is READILY available less than 15 minutes away. Unless you had "alcohol- > detectors" at every entrance to Monmouth, you'd NEVER be able to rid all > the alcohol from the town. > In the same way, Washington DC is a pretty lame example of gun control > not working. It's surrounded by huge cities with considerably less strict > gun laws. You don't have to go more than half an hour away to get > a gun. Gun control can't be a state-wide measure, it's got to be > a nation-wide measure. Here's where your analogy is false. Is it against the law for a Monmouth resident to drive outside of town and buy alcohol? No. Is it against the law for a Washington resident to drive outside of town and buy a gun? Yes. It's a FEDERAL law. Is it against the law for a liquor store outside town to sell alcohol to a Monmouth resident? No. Must he check? No. Is it against the law for a firearms dealer outside Washington to sell a gun to a resident of Washington DC? Yes. Must he check? Yes. It's a FEDERAL law. I get the feeling you don't understand what laws already exist. Gun control is ALREADY a nationwide measure. And it works when either the buyer OR the seller insist on following the law. But if the buyer is a criminal, AND the seller is a criminal, it doesn't work. And it doesn't matter whether that buyer and seller are doing business in their own hometown, in another state, or in another country. People who say "it's so easy for them to go to another state and buy guns" are either being ignorant or disingenuous. -- cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --If you believe that I speak for my company, OR cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special Investors' Packet... Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!ames!olivea!news.bbn.com!hsdndev!unix.sri.com!csl.sri.com!boucher From: boucher@csl.sri.com (Peter K. Boucher) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: Bad Example Date: 18 Nov 1993 23:46:49 GMT Organization: Computer Science Lab, SRI International Lines: 30 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2ch1h9INNbp1@roche.csl.sri.com> References: <2cgupf$s0t@pith.uoregon.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: redwood.csl.sri.com In article <2cgupf$s0t@pith.uoregon.edu>, davidw@cie-2.uoregon.edu (David Weingarten) writes: |> Somehow, using Washington DC as an example of gun control not working is |> like using Monmouth, Oregon as an example of a "dry town" not working. |> (Mind you, I'm NOT supporting prohibition in any way, shape or form, this |> is just for the sake of example. Prohibition didn't work on a large |> scale, either, but any intelligent person can make alcohol; it's a little |> harder to make a gun) Monmouth is supposed to be an entirely alcohol-free |> town. It is the site of Western Oregon State College, which is supposed |> to be (obviously) a dry campus. Does it work? Of course not! Alcohol |> is READILY available less than 15 minutes away. Unless you had "alcohol- |> detectors" at every entrance to Monmouth, you'd NEVER be able to rid all |> the alcohol from the town. Your analogy would hold up only if Monmouth, and dry towns in general, tended to have an order of magnitude more alcohol-related problems than the surrounding (wet) areas. However, if your analogy did hold up for that reason, then you'd probably suspect that being a dry town tends to make things worse, not better. |> In the same way, Washington DC is a pretty lame example of gun control |> not working. It's surrounded by huge cities with considerably less strict |> gun laws. And considerably less crime. -- Peter K. Boucher -- DISCLAIMER: The above does not necessarily represent the opinions of my employer.