Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!decwrl!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!k From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere? Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:48:31 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 9 Message-ID: <26qb4v$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com> References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] Robert Nychka (rnychka@bnr.ca) wrote: > Is there a FAQ for this group anywhere? I am looking for statistics which > detail crime/murder rates with historical gun controls. The rest of my postings in this string will be a set of statistics compiled by others. - Steve Kao Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!decwrl!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!k From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere? Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:49:05 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 449 Message-ID: <26qb61$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com> References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] Lines: 447 There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. This posting contains statistics. In a recent posting, a claim has been made that "thousands of children" were killed each year by guns. I thought this figure was suspect and that it seemed way too high. Upon reflection, I realized that many statistics being bandied about on t.p.g., especially those used to attempt to diminish the RKBA seemed suspect - and that statistics that could be VERIFIED as to the source should be used. And what better place to start than with myself. I promised to "bell the cat" in an earlier posting. So off I went to the San Jose main public library. I have the first 1/3 of the statistics gathered. In order, I am chasing down the following sets of data: 1. Criminal statistics (how many murders, what weapons, etc.) 2. Accidental statistics (are bathrooms safer than guns?) 3. Miscellaneous PART 1: THE CRIMINAL STATISTICS =============================== In providing the criminal statistics, I have used the following three references. [1] U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, "Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics 1987". Release date of August, 1988 Copies may be obtained (if unavailable in your library) from (price unknown): Justice Statistics Clearinghouse/NCJRS U.S. Department of Justice User Services Department 2 Box 6000 Rockville, MD 20850 This is an extremely comprehensive book. Just about any statistic, broken down by all kinds of factors (race, religion, rural .vs. suburban, big .vs. little city, and so on). [2] U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Inverstigation, "Uniform Crime Reports 1987". Release date of July 10, 1988. Subtitled "Crime in the United States". This is a good source of some non-criminal statistics, such as the results of polls asking about gun ownership etc. [3] The California Department of Justice, Division of Law Enforcement, Criminal Identification and Information Branch, Bureau of Criminal Statistics and Special Services, "BCS Outlook Crime 1988 in Selected California Law Enforcement Jurisdictions, January through December", March 1989. In some places, I refer to reference [1] as CJS, reference [2] as UCR, and reference [3] as BCS. Both CSJ and UCR are the latest available. They are both "released" 7 or 8 months after the end of the year, and are published and then received by libraries 11 or 12 months later. For example, the CJS was stamped with a received date of December 1988. Since that places the data about 18 months behind, I used BCS (which gives California statistics for 1988) as a "validity check" in case there was a HUGE crime wave in the last 18 months which somehow would invalidate the data. Since the California data includes large population centers with known criminal/gang actvities (Los Angeles county, San Fransisco), any "crime waves" would show up in these statistics. I discuss the BCS last. Note that in some cases, data may be for years prior to 1987 (such as the conviction data). If other than 1987, data will be so marked. NUMBERS OF FIREARMS MANUFACTURED IN THE UNITED STATES ----------------------------------------------------- CJS (see [1]) has data for firearms manufacture from 1977 through 1984. The starting and ending years are consistent with the intermediate years (although 1980 and 1981 saw a total of 5.6 and 5.7 million guns total). These figures do NOT include firearms manufactured for the military. 1977 Total guns ........... 4,904,422 Total handguns ... 1,879,645 Pistols ...... 452,667 Revolvers .... 1,426,978 Total long guns .. 3,024,777 Rifles ....... 1,839,925 Shotguns ..... 1,184,852 1984 Total guns ........... 4,651,477 Total handguns ... 1,679,709 Pistols ...... 752,919 Revolver ..... 926,790 Total long guns .. 2,966,838 Rifles ....... 1,622,890 Shotguns ..... 1,860,077 GENERAL CRIME STATISTICS ------------------------ U.S. population .... 229,048,000 1985 Property crime ............................... 10,710,870 Murder & non-negligent manslaughter .......... 18,352 Forcible rape ................................ 81,505 Robbery ...................................... 491,574 Aggravated assualt ........................... 696,081 Burglary ..................................... 2,960,091 Larceny-theft ................................ 6,680,810 Motor vehicle theft .......................... 1,069,969 1986 Property crime ............................... 11,324,129 Murder & non-negligent manslaughter .......... 19,966 Forcible rape ................................ 84,279 Robbery ...................................... 535,929 Aggravated assualt ........................... 802,189 Burglary ..................................... 3,124,672 Larceny-theft ................................ 7,008,229 Motor vehicle theft .......................... 1,191,228 For a humorous note in CJS (page 336), "In 1975, the "Human Kindness Day" activities held in Washington, DC accounted for approximately 500 robbery incidents in that year". Some much for human kindness. :-) MURDER & NON-NEGLIGENT MANSLAUGHTER, WEAPONS USED ------------------------------------------------- Data from CSJ[1] (page 337), which in turn credits major parts of UCR[2]. Guns include all firearms. Knives include all cutting and stabbing objects (broken bottles etc.), fists include hands, feet and all body parts, other include drowning, arson, poison, explosives, narcotices, asphyxiation, etc. Each column is a percentage of the total. CSJ has statistics from 1964 through 1986. Guns Knives Clubs Fists Other Unknown Total murders & NNH ---- ------ ----- ----- ----- ------- ------------------- 1964 55% 24% 5% 10% 3% 2% 7,990 1974 67% 17% 5% 8% 1% 1% 18,632 1986 59% 20% 6% 9% 2% 4% 19,257 What is most interesting is that murder by guns climbs from 55% in 1964 to 67% in 1974, and then climbs back down to 59% in 1986. When plotted, it is a classic Gaussian curve. Matching the climb in the first half of the curve is the total number of murders, coming close to tripling by 1974, then remaining more or less flat from 1974 on. There is also strong regional bias. In 1986 (CSJ[1], page 337): Guns Knives Unknown/other/clubs Fists ----- ------ ------------------- ----- Northeast 49.4% 24.2% 12.4% 12.0% Midwest 60.4% 19.3% 14.6% 5.7% South 64.3% 18.4% 12.5% 4.8% West 54.8% 21.7% 15.4% 8.0% I would perhaps conclude that the strong anti-gun laws in the Northwest (Ney York City, Boston, Washington DC) is responsible for the highest use of knives for murder as well as the VERY high use of fists (12% !!!). It should be noted in the above table that strangulation is moved from "fists" to "unknown/other" (CSJ[1] note, page 337). MURDER & NON-NEGLIGENT MANSLAUGHTER, BY AGE ------------------------------------------- It has been claimed on t.p.g. recently that thousands of children are killed each year by guns. I am not sure if the claim was accidental only, murder only, or both. Here is the data for 1987 (UCR[2], page 9): Total murders and non-negligent manslaughter .... 17,859 Under 18 .................................... 1,516 Over 18 ..................................... 16,010 Total murders & NNM by firearms ................. 10,556 Under 18 .................................... 662 Over 18 ..................................... 9,736 Total CHILD murders & NNM by firearms ........... 205 Under 1 year of age ......................... 7 1-4 years of age ............................ 31 5-9 years of age ............................ 41 10-14 years of age .......................... 126 Clearly, we are NOT having "thousands of children" murdered by guns each year. MURDER & NON-NEGLIGENT MANSLAUGHTER, BY FIREARM TYPE ---------------------------------------------------- Here is the data for 1987 (UCR[2], page 10) for murders and NNM by firearm type: Total murders and NNM for 1987 ........................... 17,859 By firearms .......................................... 10,556 By handguns .............................. 7,807 By rifles ................................ 772 By shotguns .............................. 1,095 By "other" guns (includes air rifles!) ... 16 Firearm not stated ....................... 866 Well, if you look at rifles (which includes assault rifles), the 772 dead are less than 10% of those killed by handguns, and only 4.3% of the total murders. MURDER & NNM BY RELATIONSHIP: ----------------------------- One of the most wrongfully used statistics used to support the argument that keeping a personal defense is because "90% of the time it will end up killing a loved one" (Dear Abby clipping from the San Jose Mercury News, sorry, no date, but I estimate from the last 3 years). From UCR[2] (page 11), for 1987 comes the following. The horizontal line is the reason for the murder. The percentages are for that type of murder circumstance. I.e., for all murder because of "love", 1.7% of the victims were the husband of the murderer, 8.5% were the wives, and so on. Felony is because a felony (other than the murder itself) is involved. I.e., a drug deal gone bad so one dealer shoots another. SFelony is a suspected felony. I.e., the drug dealer that shot another drug dealer won't say why, but the dead one has money and cocaine on his body. Love is romance, jealousy, and all that it entails. $$$ is arguments over money and property. Other is other arguments. Misc is miscellaneous reasons. (A traffic accident escalates to a shooting), but is of a non-felony type. ???? is unable to determine,. VICTIM Total Felony SFelony Love $$$$ Other Misc ???? ----------------- ----- ------ ------- ---- ---- ----- ---- ---- Husband 2.7% .3% 0% 1.7% 1.7% 6.1% 2.5% .7% Wife 5.2% .3% 0% 8.5% 2.8% 8.7% 9.5% 1.8% Mother .6% .1% 0% 0% 1.3% .8% 1.3% .4% Father .9% .3% 0% 0% 2.1% 1.5% 1.4% .3% Daughter 1.3% .7% 0% 0% 0% .6% 5.0% .5% Son 1.7% 1.0% 0% 0% .6% 1.1% 6.2% .3% Brother 1.1% .3% 0% .8% 3.8% 2.2% .8% .5% Sister .3% .2% 0% .6% .2% .3% .5% .1% Other family 2.7% 1.3% .5% 1.4% 4.9% 4.4% 3.4% 1.0% Acquaintances 30.0% 29.6% 10.9% 51.5% 46.7% 41.3% 32.9% 11.2% Friend 5.3% 4.0% 3.5% 11.8% 17.4% 7.4% 6.0% 1.5% Boyfriend 1.4% .2% 0% 2.8% 1.5% 3.4% 1.0% .2% Girlfriend 2.3% .3% .5% 6.3% .4% 4.6% 2.5% .9% Neighbor 1.4% 1.4% 0% .6% 3.6% 2.0% 1.5% .4% Stranger 13.2% 30.9% 11.4% 10.7% 7.2% 9.2% 14.0% 4.8% Relationship ??? 29.6% 29.0% 73.3% 3.3% 5.7% 6.4% 11.6% 75.5% The total percentage of murder by someone living in the same house is 16.5% of all murders (counting ALL family as living in the house, a strong and certainly overstated assumption). Given the vast number of guns cited previously, and the 48% "gun in house" rate (cited later), the "90% of the time it will end up killing a loved one" assertion is not valid. Lacking statistics as to where the murder occurred, it can not be formally disproved. Alas. MURDER & NNM BY CIRCUMSTANCE: ----------------------------- Why does somebody murder someone? From UCR[2] (page 12), for 1987 we have this data (again, this is the circumstance - a felony item is a murder while you are commiting a felony - like holding up a bank and killing a bank guard): Total murders and NNM for 1987 ........................... 17,859 Felony total ......................................... 19.6% Robbery .......................................... 9.4% Narcotics ........................................ 4.9% Sex offenses ..................................... .3% Arson ............................................ .9% Other felony ..................................... 4.1% Suspected felony ..................................... 1.1% Arguments ............................................ 36.7% Romantic triangle ................................ 2.0% Property or money ................................ 2.6% Other arguments .................................. 32.0% Miscellaneous non-felony types (includes drunk/high) . 17.7% Unknown .............................................. 24.9% Well, the war on drugs is going after assault rifles. Well, narcotics is the reason for 4.9% of all murders. Since rifles accounted for 772 murders of the 17,859 in 1987 (UCR[2], page 10), that makes 4.3% of all murders where a rifle was the choice. Assuming an even distribution of murder weapons across all murder circumstances (not a safe assumption), then we have 0.21% of all narcotics murders committed by rifles. This does bear out with the reality of what has been reported on TV about the very very low numbers of assault rifles seized by LA police from gang members. MISCELLANEOUS MURDER STATISTICS (UCR[2], page 12) ------------------------------------------------- Whites comprised 46 percent of the total arrestees for murder in 1987. Blacks comprised 52 percent, with other races making up the difference. The 18-24 year-old age group showed the greatest arrest percentage at 34%. MISCELLANEOUS WEAPONS USED IN ROBBERY STATISTICS (UCR[2], page 18) ------------------------------------------------------------------ In 1987, firearms were used in robbery 33% of the time, with strongarm used 43.5% of the time, knives 13.5% of the time, and other 9.9%. In the Northeast, guns were used 25.3%, strongarm 45.6%, knives 17.0%, and other 12%. I.e., in NYC, I would say that for every 4 acts of robbery, a gun will be used once, strongarm twice, and knives & other twice. Better register those strongarms. MISCELLANOUS "GUN CONTROL" STATISTIC (UCR[2], page 23) ------------------------------------------------------ The Northeast, with strongest gun control, firearms were used in aggravated assault 14.9% of the time. In the West, with the least gun control, they were used 17.7% of the time. In the Midwest and South, with mixed (but growing) gun control, firearms were used 24.4% and 25.6% of the time. I don't see much a correlation. Good news - firearms used in robberies has declined each and every year from 1974 (45%) to 1986 (34%). Each and every year, strongarm has gone up (34% in 1974 to 43% in 1986). Knives have held at a steady 12-14%. During those years, total number of robberies has fluctated at 500,00, +- 17%. CJS[1], page 341. RESULTS OF POLLS ---------------- From CJS[1], page 167: "Do you happen to have in your home or garage any guns or revolvers?" Percentage answering yes: 1973 .... 47% 1974 .... 46% 1976 .... 47% 1977 .... 51% 1980 .... 48% 1982 .... 49% 1984 .... 49% 1985 .... 44% 1987 .... 46% Above data was made available to editors of CJS[1] by Roper Public Opinion Research Center. ******** From CJS[1], page 170: "Do you own that(those) firearm(s) for protection reasons or mainly for recreational reasons?" Recreation .... 65% Protection .... 20% Both equally .. 12% No opinion .... 2% Source to CJS[1] -- Peter Begans, ABC News-Washington Pst Poll, Survey No. 181, Question 53, Jan 11-16, 1985. ******** From CSJ[1], page 171: "Do you think people should have the right to shoot someone who breaks into their home, even they don't know whether the person is armed?" Yes .......... 68% No ........... 24% No opinion ... 8% ******** From CSJ[2], page 173: "Some communities have passed laws banning the sale and possesion of handguns. Would you favor or oppose having such a law in this city/community?" Oppose Favor No Opinion ------ ----- ---------- Total ........... 47% 47% 6% Male ............ 57% 39% 4% Female .......... 38% 55% 7% All gun owners... 64% 31% 5% Handgun owners .. 71% 26% 3% Nonowners ....... 36% 58% 6% 26% of handgun owners want them banned? Something doesn't jell! Source: George Gallup Jr., The Gallup Report, No.248, May 1986. ARE THE 1987 FIGURES RELIABLE? ------------------------------ Yes, I think so. The California figures for 1988 do not show any major or even medium increase or decreases in crimes, except for motor vehicle thefts. In California in 1988 (BCS[3], page 2): Willful homicides ........ -0.2% Forcible rape ............ -5.3% Robbery .................. +2.0% Aggravated assault ....... +7.3% Burglary ................. -3.3% Motor vehicle theft ...... +15.0% (!!!!) In Los Angeles alone (BCS[3], page 6): Willful homicides ........ -9.1% Forcible rape ............ -7.5% Robbery .................. 0% Aggravated assault ....... +9.1% Burglary ................. -3.7% Motor vehicle theft ...... +.4% END OF PART 1 ============= I'll try to post part 2 (accident statistics) next week, and part 3 the week after that. If you have any specific data that you think should be included, drop me a line. +-------------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Philip K. Ronzone Manager Secure UNIX pkr@sgi.COM | WORK=(415) 335-1511 | | Silicon Graphics, Inc. MS 7U-550 {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr | (24 hour voicemail) | | 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd., Mountain View, CA 94039-7311 | FAX= (415) 965-2658 | +-------------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil Ronzone pkr@sgi.COM {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr "I never vote, it only encourages 'em ..." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!decwrl!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!k From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere? Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:49:29 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 204 Message-ID: <26qb6p$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com> References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] More statistics. I said in a previous posting that I would be posting parts 2 and 3. I've decided just to post various relevant statistics as fast as I can compile and integrate them into meaningful formats. It has all turned out to be a bigger task than I thought (although much more interesting than I thought). I'm trying to orient the postings to the relevant topics of discussion. So I thought I'd post first on the overall trend in accidental deaths by guns, then look at suicides, then try to get to the trend in South Caroline. The following table is derived from three sources: [4] U.S. Bureau of the Census, "Statistical Abstract of the United States: 1989 (109th Edition).", Washington, DC, 1989. This is for sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, DC 20402 (202) 783-3238 [5] U.S. Bureau of the Census, "Historical Statistics of the United States, Colonial Times to 1970, Bicentennial Edition, Part 2". Washington, DC 1975. This is for sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, DC 20402 (202) 783-3238 Stock number 003-024-00120-9 [6] Statistics Department, National Safety Council. "Accidents Facts 1988 Edition". National Safety Council. 444 N. Michigan Avenue, Chicago IL 606111 (800) 621-7619 The specific parts refered to are: [1] page 7, [2] page 10, [3] pages 19-20. ACCIDENTAL DEATHS BY FIREARM PER 1,000,000 PEOPLE (USA) ------------------------------------------------------- The overall trend of accidental deaths by firearm in the United States has been a steady decline since 1933 through 1986. The decline has been on the order of 4 to 1! I.e., in 1933 we had 24.00 people accidentally killed by firearms per 1,000,000 people, in 1986 we had 5.74 killed. I have included the statistics to 1903, the earliest date I have figures for. However, while these figures support the decline, they all end in 00 (2400, 2800, 2100) which leads me to suspect the accuracy. In addition, a big drop in 1967 to 1968 (and the 1967 figures themselves) reflect a change in how accidental deaths are reported. I have no further reference other than that note in the source material. Based on some descriptions of the data, it appears that some types of firearm deaths in an unknown category were moved to murder/manslaughter (suspect freed on a technicality ???? Your guess). In any case, the data is outstandingly obvious that accidental deaths by firearms are in a steady decline. I plotted the data using Microsoft Excel, and extending the line (remarkably straight since 1946), I expect accidental deaths by firearms to reach zero by the year 2013!!! By all means, graph/plot the data. If any wants to, send me a SASE at the address below and I'll put a copy of the graph in it and mail it back. Now, I would have like to plot the annual production of firearms. However, I only have firearms production from 1977 through 1985. Firearms production has ranged (in those years) from 4.6 million to 5.7 million production. This is DOMESTIC PRODUCTION ONLY. I remember reading that (I'm trying to track this down), imports of foreign semi-automatic rifles went from 30,000 in 1985 to over 800,000 in 1988. I assume many of those are AK47S Chinese manufacture. Thus, in the last four years we may have had a large increase to over 6 million weapons produced/imported, yet the trend in accidental deaths is still going down (especially sharply in the last four years). I would thus assert that firearms are inherently safe devices, and that whatever educational or other forces exist are reinforcing proper handling of firearms. One last note -- I'm still trying to figure out how many rounds of ammunition are produced each year. It struck me that in almost every firearm purchase I've seen in a gun store, the purchaser almost always buys a box of ammunition. Thus, in 1984: Total handguns produced ... 1,679,709 * 50-round box of ammo = 83,985,450 Total long guns produced .. 2,966,838 * 20-round box of ammo = 59,336,760 gives 143,322,210 totals round (probably very low). If we assume that they were all expended, this gives us 85,924 rounds per each one of the 1,668 people accidently killed by guns in 1984. For something "just designed to kill", as I believe Mr. Shallit so erroneously asserted, that is one HECK of a lousy design!!!! TFAD = Total Firearms Accidental Deaths TFAD/PM = Total Firearms Accidental Deaths Per Million Year Population TFAD TFAD/PM ---- ---------- ----- ------- 1903 79,163,000 2,500 31.58 1904 82,166,000 2,800 34.08 1905 83,822,000 2,000 23.86 1906 85,450,000 2,100 24.58 1907 87,008,000 1,700 19.54 1908 88,710,000 1,900 21.42 1909 90,490,000 1,600 17.68 1910 92,407,000 1,900 20.56 1911 93,863,000 2,100 22.37 1912 95,335,000 2,100 22.03 1913 97,225,000 2,400 24.69 1914 99,111,000 2,300 23.21 1915 100,546,000 2,100 20.89 1916 101,961,000 2,200 21.58 1917 103,268,000 2,300 22.27 1918 103,208,000 2,500 24.22 1919 104,514,000 2,800 26.79 1920 106,461,000 2,700 25.36 1921 108,538,000 2,800 25.80 1922 110,049,000 2,900 26.35 1923 111,947,000 2,900 25.91 1924 114,109,000 2,900 25.41 1925 115,829,000 2,800 24.17 1926 117,397,000 2,800 23.85 1927 119,035,000 3,000 25.20 1928 120,509,000 2,900 24.06 1929 121,767,000 3,200 26.28 1930 123,077,000 3,200 26.00 1931 124,040,000 3,100 24.99 1932 124,840,000 3,000 24.03 1933 125,579,000 3,014 24.00 1934 126,374,000 3,033 24.00 1935 127,250,000 2,799 22.00 1936 128,053,000 2,817 22.00 1937 128,825,000 2,576 20.00 1938 129,825,000 2,726 21.00 1939 130,880,000 2,618 20.00 1940 132,122,000 2,375 17.98 1941 133,402,000 2,396 17.96 1942 134,860,000 2,678 19.86 1943 136,739,000 2,282 16.69 1944 138,397,000 2,392 17.28 1945 139,928,000 2,385 17.04 1946 141,389,000 2,801 19.81 1947 144,126,000 2,439 16.92 1948 146,631,000 2,191 14.94 1949 149,188,000 2,330 15.62 1950 151,684,000 2,174 14.33 1951 154,287,000 2,247 14.56 1952 156,954,000 2,210 14.08 1953 159,565,000 2,277 14.27 1954 162,391,000 2,271 13.98 1955 165,275,000 2,120 12.83 1956 168,221,000 2,202 13.09 1957 171,274,000 2,369 13.83 1958 174,141,000 2,172 12.47 1959 177,073,000 2,258 12.75 1960 180,671,000 2,334 12.92 1961 183,691,000 2,204 12.00 1962 186,538,000 2,092 11.21 1963 189,242,000 2,263 11.96 1964 191,889,000 2,275 11.86 1965 194,303,000 2,344 12.06 1966 196,560,000 2,558 13.01 1967 198,712,000 2,896 14.57 1968 200,706,000 2,394 11.93 1969 202,677,000 2,309 11.39 1970 204,879,000 2,406 11.74 1971 207,661,000 2,360 11.36 1972 209,896,000 2,442 11.63 1973 211,909,000 2,618 12.35 1974 213,854,000 2,613 12.22 1975 215,854,000 2,380 11.03 1976 218,035,000 2,059 9.44 1977 220,239,000 1,982 9.00 1978 222,585,000 1,806 8.11 1979 225,055,000 2,004 8.90 1980 227,757,000 1,955 8.58 1981 230,138,000 1,871 8.13 1982 232,520,000 1,756 7.55 1983 234,799,000 1,695 7.22 1984 237,001,000 1,668 7.04 1985 239,279,000 1,649 6.89 1986 241,613,000 1,600 6.62 1987 243,915,000 1,400 5.74 +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Socialism - like Fascism, Communism, and Botulism, sickens and kills men. | +-------------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Philip K. Ronzone Manager Secure UNIX pkr@sgi.COM | WORK=(415) 335-1511 | | Silicon Graphics, Inc. MS 7U-550 {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr | (24 hour voicemail) | | 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd., Mountain View, CA 94039-7311 | FAX= (415) 965-2658 | +-------------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil Ronzone Manager Secure UNIX pkr@sgi.COM {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr Silicon Graphics, Inc. "I never vote, it only encourages 'em ..." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Nychka (rnychka@bnr.ca) wrote: > Is there a FAQ for this group anywhere? I am looking for statistics which > detail crime/murder rates with historical gun controls. > RN! Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!decwrl!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!k From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere? Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:49:44 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 489 Message-ID: <26qb78$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com> References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] "Targeting the Children" (TIME, 6 November 1989 pg. 36. w/o permission) One appalling result of America's fixation with firearms was disclosed last week. A study by the National Center for Health Statistics found that 3,392 children ages 1 through 19 were killed in homicides, suicides, and accidents with guns in 1987, accounting for 11% of deaths in that age group. No nation comes close to the U.S. in such fatalities. In 1985 not a single teenage male was the victim of a gun-related homicide in England or Sweden. The most frequent victims of the U.S. carnage were black males age 15 to 19: 49.2 per 100,000 in this group died in 1987 from the homicidal use of guns. Among whites, the rate was 5.1 per 100,000. Said Health and Human Services Secretary Louis Sullivan: "We are losing our youth increasingly to injury and violence." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Now, let's take a look at these numbers, and the way TIME reported them. NCHS says that 3392 people aged 1 - 19 either were killed, committed suicide, or died in an accident by guns. Calling 18 and 19 year-olds "children" is stretching it a bit. Does anyone know any 18 or 19 year-olds that like to be "child"? Homicides: ---------- Using data from the 1988 (released 6 August 1989) FBI Uniform Crime Reports "Crime in the United States", I found the following data for 1988 murders: (I know, TIME's number is from 1987, but this is for comparison purposes) [Population data for 1987 from US Statistical Abstract] Age Population Murders Rate Group in this age group per 100000 ----- ----------------- ------- ---------- 1 - 4 18,252,000(*) 44 0.24 5 - 9 17,661,000 56 0.32 10 - 14 16,485,000 136 0.82 15 - 19 18,497,000 1292 6.98 Total 1 - 19 70,895,000 1528 2.16 (*) - Includes infants less than 1 year of age. ========================================================================== First off, of the murders in this group, almost 85% are in the 15-19 group. Hardly the image TIME presents of thousands of little kids killed by guns. Also, TIME notes that the rate for black males 15 - 19 is 49.2 per 100,000, and for whites (assuming white males, as opposed to all 15 - 19 whites) is 5.1 per 100,000. Let's find out how many deaths that is: Rate Population Number ---- ---------- ------ Black 49.2 1,406,000 692 White 5.1 7,664,000 391 Total 12.02 9,070,000 1083 =========================================================================== So, of the 1528 homicides of people 1 - 19, fully 45.2% are teen black males, 25.6% are white teen males. These two groups comprise almost 71% of all homicide victims in this group. Suicides: --------- From the US Statistical Abstract, the rates (and the numbers I derived) for suicides, all causes, are as follows (ages under 10 were not even listed): Age Rate Population Number ------- ---- ---------- ------ 10 - 14 1.5 16,485,000 247 15 - 19 10.2 18,497,000 1886 Total 10 - 19 6.1 34,982,000 2133 Let's break this down by sex and age (you'll see why in a minute): Group Rate Population Number ----- ---- ---------- ------ White male 10 - 14 1.1 6,803,000 75 White male 15 - 19 18.2 7,664,000 1395 Black male 10 - 14 1.5 1,314,000 20 Black male 15 - 19 7.1 1,406,000 100 Males, 10 - 19 9.3 17,187,000 1590 White female 10 - 14 0.7 6,442,000 45 White female 15 - 19 4.1 7,350,000 301 Black female 10 - 14 0.4 1,275,000 5 Black female 15 - 19 2.1 1,384,000 29 Females, 10 - 19 2.3 16,451,000 380 Total 5.9 33,638,000 1970 =========================================================================== Now, this data is for *all methods* of suicide, not just firearms. There is another table that gives method by sex, as follows: Firearms used, male: 64.1% Firearms used, female: 39.5% Taking these percentages as approximations for the 10 - 19 age group, we get Group Number By firearm --------------- ------ ---------- Males 10 - 19 1590 1020 Females 10 - 19 380 150 =========================================================================== This gives a total of 1170 deaths for ages 10 - 19 (and 1 - 19, I assume) for suicides committed with firearms. Accidents: ---------- Now, let's look at accidents involving guns in the 1 - 19 age group. I don't have data handy (I did this at home from my own materials) that shows firearm accidents for different age, race, and sex groups. However, in 1986, from the US Statistical Abstract, the death rate from firearms accidents was 0.6 per 100,000 for the whole US. Using this as an approximation for this age group, we find that about 425 people aged 1 - 19 in this group were killed in accidents involving firearms. However, subtracting suicides and homicides from the total number of deaths leaves 694 deaths. (3392 - (1170 + 1528)). So, I'll take the higher number, just to get the numbers to work. Summary: -------- Deaths Percentage of total ------ ---------- 691 black males 15 - 19 20.37 391 white males 15 - 19 11.53 ----- ----- 1,082 males 15 - 19 31.90 ----- 1,528 homicides total 45.05 1,170 suicides 34.49 694 accidents 20.46 3,392 total 100.00 =========================================================================== So, about 1/5 of the "children" killed by guns are black teen males 15 to 19 years old. Can you say "drugs"? Add in white teen males, and we get almost a 1/3 of all "children" killed by guns in the 15 - 19 age group. Despite claims from others on the NET, the NRA spokesman (still unknown) was essentially correct in pointing out that a major chunk is taken by these aggressive black and white teenage males. Also, about 35% of that 3,392 number is suicides, and of that 35%, most is suicides by white males 15 - 19. I think that the way this has been presented by the media is atrocious. However, I am not surprised, given the omnipresent anti-gun hysteria the media has. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Gary Strand (I'm the SAF!) "The people never give up their liberties strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu but under some delusion." - Edmund Burke From pkr@maddog.sgi.com Fri Nov 3 12:32:17 1989 Relay-Version: version Notes 2.8.2 87/11/24; site hprnd.HP.COM From: pkr@maddog.sgi.com (Phil Ronzone) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1989 20:32:17 GMT Date-Received: Mon, 6 Nov 1989 05:07:33 GMT Subject: STATISTICS 3 (long) Message-ID: <1240@odin.SGI.COM> Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA Path: hprnd!hpcupt1!hpda!hplabs!hp-sdd!ucsdhub!sdcsvax!network.ucsd.edu!ucsd!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!lll-winken!arisia!sgi!shinobu!odin!maddog.sgi.com!pkr Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Sender: news@odin.SGI.COM Reply-To: pkr@maddog.sgi.com (Phil Ronzone) Lines: 317 I promised a few weeks back to post research on some of the basic issues of guns and gun controls. Some of the information I have posted before, but I haved finished the main part now, a study of guns and the murder rate. I have asked four questions -- 1. In murders, are guns becoming more the weapon of use, staying the same, or becoming less? 2. Is the per capita murder rate rising, staying the same, or dropping? 3. Is the per capita accidental death by gun rate rising, staying the same, or dropping? 4. Is the murder rate tied to the number of guns? I.e., is the number of murders per "gun-capita" going up, staying the same, or declining? In other words, if "guns cause crime", then the more guns per capita you have, the more crime per capita you should have. ****************************************************************************** THE ANSWERS 1. NO CHANGE IN USE OF GUNS AS A MURDER WEAPON FOR OVER 60 YEARS. The ratio of murder weapons (guns, knives, fists/beating, etc.) to each other has remained identical to one another from 1910 to 1988. The variation is very small, especially when viewed graphically. 2. PER CAPITA MURDER RATE IS DROPPING. The per capita murder rate peaked at an all time high in 1933 (62 per 1,000,000), and then dropped slowly to 23 in 1957. It began rising again (in the "Love In Decade") to a high of 59 in 1980, with the sharpest increase coming in the 1966-1969 period (the Gun Control Act of 1968 happened then) and is now dropping back down again to 45 in 1988. 3. ACCIDENTAL DEATHS BY GUNS STEADILY DECLINING. Accidental deaths by firearms have been consistently dropping, and will reach zero at the current rate (the slope of the last 30 years) around the year 2018. 4. MURDER RATE BY GUNS DECLINING. *** WARNING -- EXTRAPOLATION *** These figures are extrapolated from incomplete records and assumptions of steady per capita new gun production rates. Without an accurate count of the number of existing guns per year, these figures must be treated very carefully. I have erred on the VERY LOW side of guns-in-existence per year figures -- I may as much as a factor of four too low! The US is adding 4,600,000 new guns each year, losing 1,760,000 (1% of a 1988 base of 176,000,000 guns), leaving a net gain of ~3,500,000 guns. In that same year, we added about 2,200,000 people. I.e., our gun propulation is growing faster than our human population. The number of people murdered by guns, per the total number of guns in existence each year, is DECLINING betweenn 1.6% and 3.1% per year. In spreadsheet simulations, the last ten years (for which accurate gun production figures are know) have shown a 2.7% decline each year on the average. I THEREFORE STATE, AS SPECULATION NOT FACT, THAT MURDERS PER GUN ARE DECLINING 2.5% EACH YEAR, AND MAYBE AS MUCH AS 6.9%. ****************************************************************************** THE RAW NUMBERS The following is the best representation I can make with a text only graph. This graph is of total murders from 1910 through 1988. The horizontal axis is years (1910 to 1988), and the vertical axis is murders per 1,000,000. There is a peak in the 1930's. I assume this is the Depression and Prohibition. There are sharp drops during WWII and Vietnam (the early years). There is a sharp increase in 1967 -- the data collection methods changed and the references all warn that the data is NOT comparable to earlier years. It appears that more efficient data collection methods started then. What is MOST amazing is something I can't show here. This chart is produced from a database that breaks down murders by firearms, strangling, fists, poison, knives, etc. The total murder curve shown below is identical with the murder by guns, murder by knives, etc. curves! I.e., the same proportion of weapons is used to kill, regardless of the per capita murder rate. I use Microsoft Excel 2.2 to do the plots -- it's eerie to see the matching curves. If you have a plotting spreadsheet, try it yourself, or send a SASE to me at 22330 Homestead Rd. No. 226, Cupertino, CA, 95014, and I'll send you a copy of the plot on paper. The following chart was done by hand. + ++ + +++ + ++ + ++ ++ + ++++ ++ + + + + ++ + + + + +++ + + + + + + + + | + ++++++++ | | | | | | | | | =========================================================================== ADBF = Accidental Deaths By Firearm TM = Total Murders TMBF = Total Murders By Firearm TMNBF = Total Murders NOT By Firearm ADBF1M = Accidental Deaths By Firearm per 1,000,000 MBF1M = Murders By Firearm per 1,000,000 MNBF1M = Murders NOT By Firearm per 1,000,000 YEAR POPULATION ADBF TM TMBF TMNBF ADBF1M MBF1M MNBF1M ---- ----------- ----- ------- ----- ------ ------ ------ ------ 1905 83,822,000 2,000 23.86 1906 85,450,000 2,100 24.58 1907 87,008,000 1,700 19.54 1908 88,710,000 1,900 21.42 1909 90,490,000 1,600 17.68 1910 92,407,000 1,900 2,161 1,174 987 20.56 12.70 10.68 1911 93,863,000 2,100 2,978 1,743 1,235 22.37 18.57 13.16 1912 95,335,000 2,100 2,938 1,775 1,163 22.03 18.62 12.20 1913 97,225,000 2,400 3,521 2,123 1,398 24.69 21.84 14.38 1914 99,111,000 2,300 3,776 2,366 1,410 23.21 23.87 14.23 1915 100,546,000 2,100 3,633 2,213 1,420 20.89 22.01 14.12 1916 101,961,000 2,200 4,237 2,708 1,529 21.58 26.56 15.00 1917 103,268,000 2,300 4,864 3,205 1,659 22.27 31.04 16.06 1918 103,208,000 2,500 5,113 3,475 1,638 24.22 33.67 15.87 1919 104,514,000 2,800 5,973 4,247 1,726 26.79 40.64 16.51 1920 106,461,000 2,700 5,815 4,178 1,637 25.36 39.24 15.38 1921 108,538,000 2,800 7,090 5,178 1,912 25.80 47.71 17.62 1922 110,049,000 2,900 7,381 5,430 1,951 26.35 49.34 17.73 1923 111,947,000 2,900 7,557 5,422 2,135 25.91 48.43 19.07 1924 114,109,000 2,900 8,014 5,736 2,278 25.41 50.27 19.96 1925 115,829,000 2,800 8,440 5,908 2,532 24.17 51.01 21.86 1926 117,397,000 2,800 8,740 6,035 2,705 23.85 51.41 23.04 1927 119,035,000 3,000 8,997 6,004 2,993 25.20 50.44 25.14 1928 120,509,000 2,900 9,780 6,668 3,112 24.06 55.33 25.82 1929 121,767,000 3,200 9,637 6,362 3,275 26.28 52.25 26.90 1930 123,077,000 3,200 10,331 6,995 3,336 26.00 56.83 27.10 1931 124,040,000 3,100 10,862 7,335 3,527 24.99 59.13 28.43 1932 124,840,000 3,000 10,722 7,252 3,470 24.03 58.09 27.80 1933 125,579,000 3,014 12,124 7,863 4,261 24.00 62.61 33.93 1934 126,374,000 3,033 12,055 7,702 4,353 24.00 60.95 34.45 1935 127,250,000 2,799 10,587 6,506 4,081 22.00 51.13 32.07 1936 128,053,000 2,817 10,232 6,016 4,216 22.00 46.98 32.92 1937 128,825,000 2,576 9,811 5,701 4,110 20.00 44.25 31.90 1938 129,825,000 2,726 8,799 5,055 3,744 21.00 38.94 28.84 1939 130,880,000 2,618 8,394 4,799 3,595 20.00 36.67 27.47 1940 132,122,000 2,375 8,329 4,655 3,674 17.98 35.23 27.81 1941 133,402,000 2,396 8,048 4,525 3,523 17.96 33.92 26.41 1942 134,860,000 2,678 7,890 4,204 3,686 19.86 31.17 27.33 1943 136,739,000 2,282 6,823 3,444 3,379 16.69 25.19 24.71 1944 138,397,000 2,392 6,675 3,449 3,226 17.28 24.92 23.31 1945 139,928,000 2,385 7,547 4,029 3,518 17.04 28.79 25.14 1946 141,389,000 2,801 8,913 4,966 3,947 19.81 35.12 27.92 1947 144,126,000 2,439 8,708 4,922 3,786 16.92 34.15 26.27 1948 146,631,000 2,191 8,654 4,894 3,760 14.94 33.38 25.64 1949 149,188,000 2,330 7,756 4,235 3,521 15.62 28.39 23.60 1950 151,684,000 2,174 7,660 4,179 3,481 14.33 27.55 22.95 1951 154,287,000 2,247 7,268 3,898 3,370 14.56 25.26 21.84 1952 156,954,000 2,210 7,798 4,244 3,554 14.08 27.04 22.64 1953 159,565,000 2,277 7,385 4,013 3,372 14.27 25.15 21.13 1954 162,391,000 2,271 7,491 4,115 3,376 13.98 25.34 20.79 1955 165,275,000 2,120 7,191 3,807 3,384 12.83 23.03 20.47 1956 168,221,000 2,202 7,403 4,039 3,364 13.09 24.01 20.00 1957 171,274,000 2,369 7,413 4,010 3,403 13.83 23.41 19.87 1958 174,141,000 2,172 7,586 4,230 3,356 12.47 24.29 19.27 1959 177,073,000 2,258 7,932 4,457 3,475 12.75 25.17 19.62 1960 180,671,000 2,334 8,219 4,627 3,592 12.92 25.61 19.88 1961 183,691,000 2,204 8,341 4,753 3,588 12.00 25.87 19.53 1962 186,538,000 2,092 8,826 4,954 3,872 11.21 26.56 20.76 1963 189,242,000 2,263 8,979 5,126 3,853 11.96 27.09 20.36 1964 191,889,000 2,275 9,536 5,474 4,062 11.86 28.53 21.17 1965 194,303,000 2,344 10,441 6,158 4,283 12.06 31.69 22.04 1966 196,560,000 2,558 11,308 6,855 4,453 13.01 34.87 22.65 1967 198,712,000 2,896 13,038 8,332 4,706 14.57 41.93 23.68 1968 200,706,000 2,394 14,336 9,425 4,911 11.93 46.96 24.47 1969 202,677,000 2,309 15,123 10,174 4,949 11.39 50.20 24.42 1970 204,879,000 2,406 16,515 11,213 5,302 11.74 54.73 25.88 1971 207,661,000 2,360 16,183 10,680 5,503 11.36 51.43 26.50 1972 209,896,000 2,442 16,192 10,739 5,453 11.63 51.16 25.98 1973 211,909,000 2,618 17,123 11,249 5,874 12.35 53.08 27.72 1974 213,854,000 2,613 18,632 12,474 6,158 12.22 58.33 28.80 1975 215,854,000 2,380 18,642 12,061 6,581 11.03 55.88 30.49 1976 218,035,000 2,059 16,605 10,592 6,013 9.44 48.58 27.58 1977 220,239,000 1,982 18,033 11,274 6,759 9.00 51.19 30.69 1978 222,585,000 1,806 18,714 11,910 6,804 8.11 53.51 30.57 1979 225,055,000 2,004 20,591 13,040 7,551 8.90 57.94 33.55 1980 227,757,000 1,955 21,860 13,650 8,210 8.58 59.93 36.05 1981 230,138,000 1,871 20,053 12,523 7,530 8.13 54.42 32.72 1982 232,520,000 1,756 20,031 12,513 7,518 7.55 53.81 32.33 1983 234,799,000 1,695 18,673 10,895 7,778 7.22 46.40 33.13 1984 237,001,000 1,668 17,260 10,175 7,085 7.04 42.93 29.89 1985 239,279,000 1,649 17,545 10,296 7,249 6.89 43.03 30.30 1986 241,613,000 1,600 19,257 11,381 7,876 6.62 47.10 32.60 1987 243,915,000 1,400 17,859 10,556 7,303 5.74 43.28 29.94 1988 246,113,000 18,269 11,084 7,185 45.04 29.19 ****************************************************************************** NUMBERS OF FIREARMS MANUFACTURED IN THE UNITED STATES CJS87 has data for firearms manufacture from 1977 through 1984. The starting and ending years are consistent with the intermediate years (although 1980 and 1981 saw a total of 5.6 and 5.7 million guns total). These figures do NOT include firearms manufactured for the military AND do NOT include imports (TV news claims over 800,000 AK47 rifles imported in 1988). 1977 Total guns ........... 4,904,422 Total handguns ... 1,879,645 Pistols ...... 452,667 Revolvers .... 1,426,978 Total long guns .. 3,024,777 Rifles ....... 1,839,925 Shotguns ..... 1,184,852 1984 Total guns ........... 4,651,477 Total handguns ... 1,679,709 Pistols ...... 752,919 Revolver ..... 926,790 Total long guns .. 2,966,838 Rifles ......... 1,622,890 Shotguns ....... 1,860,077 This gives us a figure of one new gun produced per 47 people per year. Guns for the most part do not wear out. In Shotgun News, there are a great many advertisements for rifles and pistols made in 1917, 1903, 1910, etc. Based on police confiscation records (most confiscated guns are destroyed), informal figures from gun stores that provide gun smith services, a HIGH figure would be that every year, much less than 1% of all guns are destroyed, lost, or otherwise permanently "gone". Note that 1% of all guns is 1,700,000 in 1988!! I think it is MUCH less than 1%, but, we'll use that for now. Assuming a per capita production rate of 1 new gun every year per 47 people, and a 1% of ALL guns lost each year, AND a FALSE assumption of ZERO guns existing in 1910, the U.S. now has 176,000,000 guns. REMEMBER - we're adding 4,600,000 new guns each year, losing 1,700,000, leaving a net gain of 3,500,000 guns. In that same year, we added about 2,200,000 people. Thus, there were 17,094 guns for each murder in 1987, and 17,433 guns for each murder in 1988. The plot shows a slowly declining sine wave of a 1.2% to 3.1% INCREASE in guns for each person killed (per year). ****************************************************************************** REFERENCES BCS88 The California Department of Justice, Division of Law Enforcement, Criminal Identification and Information Branch, Bureau of Criminal Statistics and Special Services, BCS Outlook Crime 1988 in Selected California Law Enforcement Jurisdictions, January through December, March 1989. BCS89 The California Department of Justice, Division of Law Enforcement, Criminal Identification and Information Branch, Bureau of Criminal Statistics and Special Services, BCS Outlook Crime 1989 in Selected California Law Enforcement Jurisdictions, January through June, August 1989. BOC75 U.S. Bureau of the Census, Historical Statistics of the United States, Colonial Times to 1970, Bicentennial Edition, Part 2, Washington, DC, 1975. BOC82 U.S. Bureau of the Census, Statistical Abstract of the United States: 1982-83. (103th edition.) Washington, DC, 1982 [sic]. BOC89 U.S. Bureau of the Census, Statistical Abstract of the United States: 1989 (109th edition.) Washington, DC, 1989. CJS83 United States Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics, 1983. CJS87 United States Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics, 1987. NSC88 National Safety Council, Accident Facts 1988 Edition, Chicago, IL, 1988. Available via Customer Service, National Service Council, 444 N. Michigan Ave., Chicago, Illinois 60611. (800) 621-7619. UCR82 U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Reports 1982. UCR85 U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Reports 1985. UCR87 U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Reports 1987. ****************************************************************************** All calculations done by Microsoft Excel 2.2 on a Macintosh II. For a copy of the Execl spreadsheet, send an 800K NEW UNFORMATTED FLOPPY with a return, postage pre-paid mailer to: 22330 Homestead Rd. No. 226, Cupertino, CA, 95014 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil Ronzone Manager Secure UNIX pkr@sgi.COM {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr Silicon Graphics, Inc. "I never vote, it only encourages 'em ..." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!decwrl!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!k From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere? Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:49:57 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 126 Message-ID: <26qb7l$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com> References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] BAD MEDICINE KILLS MORE PEOPLE THAN ARE MURDERED? ------------------------------------------------- There have been recent postings on how the CDC (Center for Disease Control) has (apparently) added firearms to the "diseases" list. From what I have read, it seems like pure HCBH (or whatever) propaganda. Could it be that bad doctors and bad hospitals are more of a killer than forearms? A recent (31-dec-89) CNN report on medicine stated that "surgical excursions" killed more people than firearms in 1988. A "surgical excursion" is when something happens that SHOULD not and that could have been prevented. I.e., this is NOT an unexpected reaction to penicillin but: the wrong medicine was given, the physician made a mistake, the blood given was the wrong type and so. I'm REALLY researching this one (well, CDC?), and what I have so far: Homicides per 100,000 in 1987 ........................ 8.9 "Symptoms, signs, ill-defined conditions" in 1987 .... 13.7 The cause of deaths for 1987 is where I got the "Symptoms, signs, ill-defined conditions" category. All the other medical terms were such things as meningitis, viral hepatitis, 8 categroies of heart disease, ulcers, hernias, and so on, and then the strangely named "Symptoms, signs, ill-defined conditions". My research librarian says it covers the "doctors or hospitals made a boo-boo" category. I'm still researching, but these facts seem solid enough to post now. SOURCE: The World Almanac Consumer Information Series, 1990. Information in the rest of this posting comes from: Report to the Nation on Crime and Justice, Second Edition, U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, NCJ-105506, March 1988. HOW DO PEOPLE PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM CRIME? -------------------------------------------- There has been debate of how much (if any!?) crime has been prevented by owning a firearm. The following figures are based on the BJS National Crime Survey, 1979-85, and are reported as follows. Note that only victims reporting sucessful prevention are reported (i.e., no homicide figures). The percent figure is the percentage of the victimizations that were PREVENTED. A weapon was used or brandished ... 3% in 1,206,755 rapes -----> 36,202 A weapon was used or brandished ... 4% in 8,484,516 robberies -> 339,380 A weapon was used or brandished ... 4% in 36,269,845 assaults --> 1,450,793 --------- 1,826,375 Seems to me that 1.8 million violent victimizations speak pretty highly of weapons use and brandishing. VICTIM-OFFENDER RELATIONSHIP FOR HOMICIDES, ASSAULTS, ROBBERIES --------------------------------------------------------------- Again, most murder victims are NOT relatives!! Homicide Robbery Assault -------- ------- ------- Strangers 18% 75% 51% Acquaintance 39% 17% 35% Relative 18% 4% 4% Unknown 26% 4% 4% WEAPONS INVOLVED IN CRIME ------------------------- For 1985, for robbery and assaults, the following is how many incidents involved a firearm and how many involved a knife. Robbery Assault ------- ------- Firearm 23% 12% Knife 21% 10% What is MOST interesting is that in robbery and assaults, a gun was ACTUALLY fired and hit the victim ONLY 4% of the time in all incidents in 1985! Yet victims were actually stabbed in 10% in the knives incidents. I.e., for robbery and assaults, it will be about even the number of times a gun is used or a knife is used, yet if a knife is used, you will be TWICE as likely to be stabbed as to be shot. A quote from page 21: "When guns are present victims are less likely to be injured than if the offender is armed with a knife or other weapon because guns are often used to coerce the victim into compliance, according to the NCS". INTERESTING QUOTES ------------------ Page 14: "The percentage of households touched by crime has declined over the past 10 years ... from 32% of households [touched by crime] to 25% of all households ... personal larceny from 16% to 12%, burglary from 8% to 5%. Page 15: A beautiful picture (of a graph) showing the decline in per capita homcides since 1980. For those that haven't plotted the stats in STATISTICS1-3, you can see it right here. FUTURE ------ I'm still constructing a large database to try and use for disputing the "gun control reduces gun crime" assertion. --- end of statistics 4 --- ------Me and my dyslexic keyboard---------------------------------------------- Phil Ronzone Manager Secure UNIX pkr@sgi.COM {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr Silicon Graphics, Inc. "I never vote, it only encourages 'em ..." -----In honor of Minas, no spell checker was run on this posting--------------- Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!decwrl!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!k From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere? Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:50:28 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 88 Message-ID: <26qb8k$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com> References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] >In article <1034@telesci.UUCP> cciolori@telesci.UUCP (Christopher Ciolorito) writes: >Is a criminal(or other violent type) going to be more likely to >try to strangle someone, or stab them, etc.. or is he going to stand >20 meters away, fire a shot and run? Believe me, most criminals are >cowards, if they had to face one-to-one a person they wanted to kill >they would think ten times before doing it! I posted a factual rebuttal to this early and it won't kill. The earlier data was for areas of california (wrong file). The better data follows: An implication here is that without guns, murders would be "harder" or more difficult to commit, and hence there should be fewer murders. This is clearly not the case. On a per-capita basis, some of the higher muder rates are in areas of very strong gun control (Northeast US, Washington DC, NYX, Mass. etc.). And gun control does have an effect! It does NOT reduce the murder rate. It DOES shift the murder rate to knives, fists, etc. [1] U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, "Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics 1987". Release date of August, 1988 Copies may be obtained (if unavailable in your library) from (price unknown): Justice Statistics Clearinghouse/NCJRS U.S. Department of Justice User Services Department 2 Box 6000 Rockville, MD 20850 This is an extremely comprehensive book. Just about any statistic, broken down by all kinds of factors (race, religion, rural .vs. suburban, big .vs. little city, and so on). MURDER & NON-NEGLIGENT MANSLAUGHTER, WEAPONS USED ------------------------------------------------- Data from CSJ[1] (page 337), which in turn credits major parts of UCR[2]. Guns include all firearms. Knives include all cutting and stabbing objects (broken bottles etc.), fists include hands, feet and all body parts, other include drowning, arson, poison, explosives, narcotices, asphyxiation, etc. Each column is a percentage of the total. CSJ has statistics from 1964 through 1986. Guns Knives Clubs Fists Other Unknown Total murders & NNH ---- ------ ----- ----- ----- ------- ------------------- 1964 55% 24% 5% 10% 3% 2% 7,990 1974 67% 17% 5% 8% 1% 1% 18,632 1986 59% 20% 6% 9% 2% 4% 19,257 What is most interesting is that murder by guns climbs from 55% in 1964 to 67% in 1974, and then climbs back down to 59% in 1986. When plotted, it is a classic Gaussian curve. Matching the climb in the first half of the curve is the total number of murders, coming close to tripling by 1974, then remaining more or less flat from 1974 on. There is also strong regional bias. In 1986 (CSJ[1], page 337): Guns Knives Unknown/other/clubs Fists ----- ------ ------------------- ----- Northeast 49.4% 24.2% 12.4% 12.0% Midwest 60.4% 19.3% 14.6% 5.7% South 64.3% 18.4% 12.5% 4.8% West 54.8% 21.7% 15.4% 8.0% I would perhaps conclude that the strong anti-gun laws in the Northwest (Ney York City, Boston, Washington DC) is responsible for the highest use of knives for murder as well as the VERY high use of fists (12% !!!). It should be noted in the above table that strangulation is moved from "fists" to "unknown/other" (CSJ[1] note, page 337). ------Me and my dyslexic keyboard---------------------------------------------- Phil Ronzone Manager Secure UNIX pkr@sgi.COM {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr Silicon Graphics, Inc. "I never vote, it only encourages 'em ..." -----In honor of Minas, no spell checker was run on this posting--------------- Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!decwrl!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!k From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere? Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:50:46 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 64 Message-ID: <26qb96$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com> References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] STATISTICS ON POLICE DEATHS One of the reasons always given as a justification for gun control laws is the number of police officers killed. This prompted me to look at the available data. The FBI Uniform Crime Reports - Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted show 828 officers feloniously killed in the line of duty from 1980 through 1989. For 1988, the last year for which data are presently available, there were 78 officers feloniously killed in the line of duty and another 77 killed by on the job accidents, primarily traffic accidents. The 1988 statistics are typical for the ten year period. These numbers are nationwide totals for sworn officers. They average together both high risk urban areas and rural areas. Unfortunately, WITH SUCH A SMALL SAMPLE SIZE, its questionable that any further breakdown is useful. So, we have: Number of Number of Deaths per Workers(1000's) Deaths 100,000 Police officers 550 155 28 Let's put this in perspective with some other industries. These figures are from the National Safety Council Accident Facts, 1989 edition. Number of Number of Deaths per Workers(1000's) Deaths 100,000 Police officers 550 155 28 Agriculture, Farming, Fishing 3,100 1,500 48 Mining, Quarrying 800 200 25 Construction 6,500 2,200 34 Transportation, Public Utilities 5,800 1,400 24 Expanding the search to include any on the job death or injury resulting in days away from work gives these figures for 1987. These numbers are per 100 full time employees per year. Part time employees are factored in based on hours worked. Injuries per Industry 100 workers ------------------------------------- Police 2.37 Fire protection 5.36 Agriculture 4.19 Construction 2.93 Sawmills 5.02 Shipbuilding 4.20 Newspapers 3.53 Trucking 17.55 Summary: As far as on the job death and injuries, being a police officer is about as dangerous as being a miner or a utility worker. And a lot less dangerous working in a sawmill, being a farmer, being a construction worker, or being a long haul truck driver. Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!decwrl!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!k From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere? Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:51:03 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 110 Message-ID: <26qb9n$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com> References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] RKBA.000 - What the RKBA.nnn postings are all about Version 1.3 (last changed on 90/05/10 at 19:56:32) INTRODUCTION ============ The RKBA.nnn series are a (hopefully) growing set of small (60-100 lines typically) postings that address common questions and myths about all aspects of firearms. It is posted to talk.politics.guns on a regular basis (yet to be determined as to what is appropriate). One of the problems with many debates in talk.politics.guns is the repeated occurrence of an issue. No sooner is the myth of "cop killer bullets" refuted than a week later it crops up again from a new poster. These postings will (I hope) serve as both quick "fact sheets" for rebuttal and as general guides for information in the fight for the right to keep and bear arms. I have generated a list of about thirty RKBA.nnn postings on topics that I have seen come up repeatedly in talk.politics.guns in the last six months. I have enough facts and research on hand to do about twenty or so of them right off the bat. The first thirteen are listed below. I will be posting them all thirteen of them in the next ten days. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA.000 - What the RKBA.nnn postings are all about RKBA.001 - Accidental deaths by firearms and by other means RKBA.002 - Declining trend of accidental deaths by firearms RKBA.003 - Homicide per capita in the US RKBA.004 - Children and firearms RKBA.005 - Myth of "cop killer" ammunition RKBA.006 - Myth of "plastic guns" RKBA.007 - About assault rifles RKBA.008 - Annual firearm manufacture in the United States RKBA.009 - Households owning a firearm RKBA.010 - Declaration of Independence RKBA.011 - The Constitution of the United States of America RKBA.012 - Switzerland and firearms RKBA.013 - Trend in weapons use for robberies (1974-86) RKBA.014 - Reasons for homicide and non-negligent manslaughter *** and more to come *** RKBA.999 - Complete list of all sources ADDITIONAL RKBA.nnn POSTINGS ============================ I will create and post them as needed. I solicit recommendations and help and above, references and other hard facts. Send suggestions to: pkr@sgi.com COPYRIGHT ========= Copyright 1990 by Philip K. Ronzone. Permission to use any and all of the RKBA.nnn postings as long as this copyright is included. Excerpts for net postings may omit the copyright notice. Please don't repost any RKBA.nnn posting with any changes unless you let me know first. I doublecheck all the information and keep track of the sources. Changes can cause doubt to be shed on the validity of the RKBA.nnn postings. While I may state my opinions in a RKBA.nnn posting, it will clearly be an opinion (such as "conclusion" or "interpretation"). The facts will be facts however. Otherwise, redistribute as you will. SOURCES ======= All sources referenced have been moved out of RKBA.000 and are now listed in RKBA.999. ARCHIVE ======= I am indebted to Jonathan Kamens for providing an archive service: >Phil, > > I will be archiving your RKBA postings on my workstation, >pit-manager.mit.edu (18.72.1.58), as I see them appearing in >talk.politics.guns. They will be available for anonymous ftp in >/ftp/pub/rkba. Furthermore, since my workstation exports NFS, other >sites that are equipped for NFS client access can mount the directory >pit-manager.mit.edu:/site/mit/ftp/pub/rkba to gain access to them. > > Feel free to forward this message to talk.politics.guns, and to >wherever else you feel might be appropriate (please let me know to >where you forward it if you forward it anywhere other than t.p.g). > >Jonathan Kamens USnail: >MIT Project Athena 11 Ashford Terrace >jik@Athena.MIT.EDU Allston, MA 02134 >Office: 617-253-8495 Home: 617-782-0710 Thank you very much, Jonathan. -end- -- <----------------------------------------------------------------------------> Philip K. Ronzone S e c u r e U N I X pkr@sgi.com Silicon Graphics, Inc. MS 9U-500 work (415) 335-1511 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd., Mountain View, CA 94039 fax (415) 965-2658 Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!decwrl!olivea!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!k From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere? Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:51:19 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 55 Message-ID: <26qba7$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com> References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] RKBA.001 - Accidental deaths by firearms and by other means April 21, 1990, version 1.0 DESCRIPTION =========== Firearms are NOT a leading cause of accidental deaths. Accidental falls and drowning together kill more than TEN times the number of people accidently killed by firearms. The accidental death rate per capita for firearms has been declining steadily for over 50 years (see RKBA.002). CONCLUSION ========== Mandatory swimming lessons and safety in dealing with heights (ladders etc.) would be money better spent than mandatory firearms training. The Y-axis increment in the table below is 2,000. #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### ### #### ### #### ### # #### ### ### ### ### #### ### ### ### ### ### #### ### ### ### ### ### ### vvv ------------------------------------------------------------------ 48,700 11,300 5,300 4,800 4,400 3,200 1,400 1,000 motor falls drowning fires poison choking guns poison vehicles lq/sld gas -end- --------------------- If you don't see the moral answer to the problem, use -- Phil Ronzone pkr@sgi.COM {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr --------------------- the universal can opener: "Whose property/life is it?" -- Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!decwrl!olivea!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!k From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere? Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:51:34 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 67 Message-ID: <26qbam$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com> References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] RKBA.002 - Declining trend of accidental deaths by firearms Version 1.1 (last changed on 90/04/23 at 22:28:19) DESCRIPTION =========== The accidental deaths by firearm per capita has been declining steadily for almost sixty years. In 1932, the accidental deaths by firearm per 1,000,000 people was 24.03. In 1987, it was 5.74. The decline has been steady, consistent, and a fairly straight line when plotted. At the rate of the last sixty years, it will reach zero sometime around 2025 AD. CONCLUSION ========== Firearms have been a declining factor in accidental deaths for over sixty years, despite rising per-capita gun ownership. [1] = Year. [2] = Population. [3] = Accidental deaths. [4] = Accidental deaths per 1,000,000. [1] [2] [3] [4] [1] [2] [3] [4] 1932 124,840,000 3,000 24.03 1961 183,691,000 2,204 12.00 1933 125,579,000 3,014 24.00 1962 186,538,000 2,092 11.21 1934 126,374,000 3,033 24.00 1963 189,242,000 2,263 11.96 1935 127,250,000 2,799 22.00 1964 191,889,000 2,275 11.86 1936 128,053,000 2,817 22.00 1965 194,303,000 2,344 12.06 1937 128,825,000 2,576 20.00 1966 196,560,000 2,558 13.01 1938 129,825,000 2,726 21.00 1967 198,712,000 2,896 14.57 1939 130,880,000 2,618 20.00 1968 200,706,000 2,394 11.93 1940 132,122,000 2,375 17.98 1969 202,677,000 2,309 11.39 1941 133,402,000 2,396 17.96 1970 204,879,000 2,406 11.74 1942 134,860,000 2,678 19.86 1971 207,661,000 2,360 11.36 1943 136,739,000 2,282 16.69 1972 209,896,000 2,442 11.63 1944 138,397,000 2,392 17.28 1973 211,909,000 2,618 12.35 1945 139,928,000 2,385 17.04 1974 213,854,000 2,613 12.22 1946 141,389,000 2,801 19.81 1975 215,854,000 2,380 11.03 1947 144,126,000 2,439 16.92 1976 218,035,000 2,059 9.44 1948 146,631,000 2,191 14.94 1977 220,239,000 1,982 9.00 1949 149,188,000 2,330 15.62 1978 222,585,000 1,806 8.11 1950 151,684,000 2,174 14.33 1979 225,055,000 2,004 8.90 1951 154,287,000 2,247 14.56 1980 227,757,000 1,955 8.58 1952 156,954,000 2,210 14.08 1981 230,138,000 1,871 8.13 1953 159,565,000 2,277 14.27 1982 232,520,000 1,756 7.55 1954 162,391,000 2,271 13.98 1983 234,799,000 1,695 7.22 1955 165,275,000 2,120 12.83 1984 237,001,000 1,668 7.04 1956 168,221,000 2,202 13.09 1985 239,279,000 1,649 6.89 1957 171,274,000 2,369 13.83 1986 241,613,000 1,600 6.62 1958 174,141,000 2,172 12.47 1987 243,915,000 1,400 5.74 1959 177,073,000 2,258 12.75 1960 180,671,000 2,334 12.92 Sources: BOC75, BOC83, BOC89. -end- --------------------- If you don't see the moral answer to the problem, use -- Phil Ronzone pkr@sgi.COM {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr --------------------- the universal can opener: "Whose property/life is it?" -- Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!decwrl!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!k From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere? Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:51:46 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 77 Message-ID: <26qbb2$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com> References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] RKBA.003 - Homicide per capita in the US Version 1.1 (last changed on 90/04/23 at 23:15:38) DESCRIPTION =========== Homicide by firearms per capita in the US has varied up and down over the years. It has peaked in the middle of the 1930's (Prohibition), declined thereafter, with significant dips during WWI, the Korean war, and the start of the Vietnam war. It has been in a decline again since 1979. The per capita homicide (by firearms) rate is now at a rate equal to that of the late 1930's/early 1940's. A premise of gun control is that reducing the number of guns reduces crime. The corollary is that increasing the number of guns increase crime. The period after WWII, when millions of servicemen returned home with hundreds of thousands of firearms as war souvenir, shows an near- perfect flat line. However, the period after the passage of the most infamous anti-gun laws (GCA68 - the Gun Control Act of 1968) shows a dramatic and fairly sudden increase in homicides (by firearms) per capita. What can be seen is that a sudden reduction of men in the age group of 18-24 (the age groups that commits the most crimes) shows a sudden reduction in homicides (as well as other crimes). The three wars, WWII, Korean, and Vietnam show these dips. In addition, a plot (not shown) of all firearms-not-used homicides (knives, poison, hands, feet, explosives etc.) shows a near identical plot. In other words, the TOTAL per capita murder rate for guns and all others go up and down together. CONCLUSION ========== No correlation can be shown by U.S. national homicide figures that reducing or restricting the number of guns reduces homicides. GRAPH ===== The Y-axis is 5 homicides/non-negligent homicides per 1,000,000. The X- axis is 1.2 years (squeezed to fit), starting at 1915. 1979 | + :::::::::::::::::##:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::#::::::: :::::::::::::::###:#:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::##:::#::##::::: ::::::::::::##:::::::#:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::####::##::::::#:#:: ::::::::#:::::::::::::#:::::::::::::::::::::::::::##::::::::::::::::#:#: :::::#:::::::::::::::::::#::::###:::::::::::::::::#::::::::::::::::::::# :::#:#:::::::::::::::::::::#:#:::#::::::::::::::#::::::::::::::::::::::: :#:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::#::########:::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::#:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: + + + + | | | | 1915 1942 1967 1988 Sources: BOC75, BOC89, UCR82, UCR85, UCR87. -end- --------------------- If you don't see the moral answer to the problem, use -- Phil Ronzone pkr@sgi.COM {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr --------------------- the universal can opener: "Whose property/life is it?" -- Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!decwrl!olivea!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!k From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere? Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:52:00 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 105 Message-ID: <26qbbg$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com> References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] RKBA.004 - Children and firearms Version 1.1 (last changed on 90/04/25 at 21:44:23) DESCRIPTION ============ One of the most emotional issues that people confront is death. Death of children can be even more emotional, playing on our concern for the young and helpless. Shortly after the February 6, 1989 issue of TIME magazine, a fairly long lived debate began in talk.politics.guns on the issue of children killed by firearms. Letters to TIME magazine in the weeks that followed that issue claimed figures such as "over 3,400 children" are killed each year by firearms. One poster to talk.politics.guns claimed that the figure was "ten thousand children" killed each year. In actuality, the total number of children (ages up to and including 14) killed by firearms, deliberately or accidently, is typically 500 to 600 a year. SUMMARY ======= Total firearm deaths for children (<1 through 14) at 587 (1988) is one of the SMALLEST causes of deaths in children. Cars, falls, burns, drowning, food ingestion are all much larger cause of deaths (7,988). Deaths of all types, including firearms, rise dramatically starting at age 15, peaking at 17 through 22 (the really dangerous years). CONCLUSION ========== The use of the phrase "thousands of children killed" is an emotional propagandistic phrase designed to play on our worst fears. Be aware that TIME magazine has printed a letter from a "doctor" who claimed that 3,312 children are killed "by guns" each year. The only way to achieve that figure is to count as children all people from age 0 through and including 24! (Ages 0 through 24 is a common statistical grouping in many sources). Watch out for inclusion of ages 16, 17, and 18 into the "children" group. IMHO, children can not drive, drink beer, or join the military, all things possible in those three years. MURDERS AND NON-NEGLIGENT HOMICIDES (1988) AGE By firearms Other (cutting, stabbing, blunt objects, poison...) < 1 10 230 1 to 4 44 289 5 to 9 56 96 10 to 14 136 91 -------- --- --- 246 706 Total deaths (accidental and non-murder) ages up to and including 24 were 54,207 (1985). In 1985, total firearm accidental and non-murder deaths was 755 for the same age group. AGE Accidental deaths by firearms <1 2 1 5 2 12 3 10 4 14 5 9 6 9 7 10 8 12 9 18 10 27 11 23 12 37 13 38 14 52 --- 278 15 57 16 52 17 42 --- --- 429 FUTURE ====== As I do the research, I will break these statistics down into 1 year increments, using 1989 statistics, from ages 0 through 24. Sources: NSC88, TIME06FEB89, UCR89. -end- --------------------- If you don't see the moral answer to the problem, use -- Phil Ronzone pkr@sgi.COM {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr --------------------- the universal can opener: "Whose property/life is it?" -- Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!decwrl!olivea!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!k From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere? Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:52:39 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 48 Message-ID: <26qbcn$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com> References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] {I don't have RKBA.005, 006, or 007. - Steve Kao} RKBA.008 - Annual firearm manufacture in the United States Version 1.1 (last changed on 90/04/25 at 23:38:32) DESCRIPTION ============ CJS87 has data for firearms manufacture from 1977 through 1984. The starting and ending years are consistent with the intermediate years (although 1980 and 1981 saw a total of 5.6 and 5.7 million guns total). These figures do NOT include firearms manufactured for the military. 1977 Total guns ........... 4,904,422 Total handguns ... 1,879,645 Pistols ...... 452,667 Revolvers .... 1,426,978 Total long guns .. 3,024,777 Rifles ....... 1,839,925 Shotguns ..... 1,184,852 1984 Total guns ........... 4,651,477 Total handguns ... 1,679,709 Pistols ...... 752,919 Revolver ..... 926,790 Total long guns .. 2,966,838 Rifles ....... 1,106,761 Shotguns ..... 1,860,077 Machine guns . 4,930 TIME magazine claimed that AK47S imports were 4,000 in 185-1986, and 40,000 in 1988. Imports of that type of foreign made semiautomatic rifle were stopped in early 1989. That means that imports of AK47S style rifles were about 2% (two percent) of the typical total domestic rifle production. Sources: CJS87, TIME06FEB89. -end- --------------------- If you don't see the moral answer to the problem, use -- Phil Ronzone pkr@sgi.COM {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr --------------------- the universal can opener: "Whose property/life is it?" -- Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!decwrl!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!k From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere? Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:53:11 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 155 Message-ID: <26qbdn$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com> References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] {I don't have RKBA.009 - Steve Kao} RKBA.010 - Declaration of Independence Version 1.1 (last changed on 90/04/25 at 21:57:13) (Adopted in Congress 4 July 1776) The Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers form the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world. He has refused his assent to laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good. He has forbidden his governors to pass laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them. He has refused to pass other laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of representation in the legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only. He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures. He has dissolved representative houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people. He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the legislative powers, incapable of annihilation, have returned to the people at large for their exercise; the state remaining in the meantime exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within. He has endeavored to prevent the population of these states; for that purpose obstructing the laws for naturalization of foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new appropriations of lands. He has obstructed the administration of justice, by refusing his assent to laws for establishing judiciary powers. He has made judges dependent on his will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries. He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance. He has kept among us, in times of peace, standing armies without the consent of our legislature. He has affected to render the military independent of and superior to civil power. He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his assent to their acts of pretended legislation: For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us: For protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment for any murders which they should commit on the inhabitants of these states: For cutting off our trade with all parts of the world: For imposing taxes on us without our consent: For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of trial by jury: For transporting us beyond seas to be tried for pretended offenses: For abolishing the free system of English laws in a neighboring province, establishing therein an arbitrary government, and enlarging its boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule in these colonies: For taking away our charters, abolishing our most valuable laws, and altering fundamentally the forms of our governments: For suspending our own legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever. He has abdicated government here, by declaring us out of his protection and waging war against us. He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burned our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people. He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the head of a civilized nation. He has constrained our fellow citizens taken captive on the high seas to bear arms against their country, to become the executioners of their friends and brethren, or to fall themselves by their hands. He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian savages, whose known rule of warfare, is undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions. In every stage of these oppressions we have petitioned for redress in the most humble terms: our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people. Nor have we been wanting in attention to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, enemies in war, in peace friends. We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor. New Hampshire: Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton Massachusetts: John Hancock, Samual Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry Rhode Island: Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery Connecticut: Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott New York: William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris New Jersey: Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark Pennsylvania: Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross Delaware: Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean Maryland: Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton Virginia: George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton North Carolina: William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn South Carolina: Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton Georgia: Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton Sources: I would like to acknowledge to the original poster of this. If he or she would let me know, I will acknowledge them in the next posting. -end- --------------------- If you don't see the moral answer to the problem, use -- Phil Ronzone pkr@sgi.COM {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr --------------------- the universal can opener: "Whose property/life is it?" -- Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!decwrl!olivea!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!k From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere? Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:53:44 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 65 Message-ID: <26qbeo$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com> References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] {I don't have RKBA.011 or 012 - Steve Kao} RKBA.013 - Trend in weapons use for robberies (1974-86) Version 1.1 (last changed on 90/04/23 at 22:24:42) DESCRIPTION =========== In the thirteen years from 1974 to 1986, the use of firearms in robberies has decreased from 45% of robberies to 34%. In the same time period, the use of knives has stayed about the same, the use of clubs and blunt objects has risen somewhat, and the use of hands, feet, etc. has risen from 34% to over 43%. During the period 1975 through 1986, no national gun control laws were enacted. Very few states, with the exception of Massachusetts, adopted new gun control laws. However, many states did enact laws or sentencing guidelines of the "use a gun, go to jail" type. SUMMARY ======= The use firearms in robbery is declining. The use of hands, fists, feet, etc. rose. No national and no significant state laws (except MA) were enacted. Per capita firearm ownership rose slightly. The only observable correlation is that of stricter sentencing of criminals when a guns is used. CONCLUSION ========== To reduce the use firearms in robberies, implement stricter sentencing when firearms are involved. Knife or Dangerous Hands, Any any cutting object, club, fist YEAR Robberies Firearm instrument blunt object feet ---- --------- ------- ------------ ------------- -------- 1974 389,140 44.7 13.1 8.1 34.1 1975 439,965 44.8 12.5 7.8 35.0 1976 408,788 42.6 13.0 7.8 36.5 1977 383,962 41.6 13.2 8.5 36.7 1978 405,735 40.8 12.7 9.0 37.5 1979 434,654 39.7 13.2 9.4 37.7 1980 526,537 40.3 12.8 9.1 37.8 1981 522,549 40.1 13.1 8.9 37.8 1982 512,444 39.9 13.6 9.1 37.4 1983 488,246 36.6 13.6 9.5 40.3 1984 435,732 36 13 9 42 1985 461,725 35 13 9 42 1986 531,468 34 14 10 43 Source: BJS86 for precise 1974 through 1983 values (based on data not published in the Uniform Crime Reports), CJS87 for 1984 through 1986. -end- -- <----------------------------------------------------------------------------> Philip K. Ronzone S e c u r e U N I X pkr@sgi.com Silicon Graphics, Inc. MS 9U-500 work (415) 335-1511 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd., Mountain View, CA 94039 fax (415) 969-2314 Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!decwrl!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!k From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere? Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:54:02 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 238 Message-ID: <26qbfa$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com> References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] RKBA.014 - Reasons for homicide and non-negligent manslaughter Version 1.1 (last changed on 90/05/17 at 15:07:58) DESCRIPTION =========== A common misconception, popularized in the media (especially in the Dear Abby/Ann Landers sob-sister columns), is that a gun in the house is more likely to murder a "loved one" than to defeat a burglar. The tables below show the total victims of each type, the type being the relationship to the murderer, and the circumstances during which the victim was murderd. Table one shows the numbers as percentages, table two as victim counts, and table three as in descending order of all types by victim. The figures are for 1987. Note that ALL murders are counted, regardless of the weapon used. Other statistics, not as complete and hence not included, show that a gun is used far more in murdering strangers than it is for relatives (knives are very popular with relatives). Numbers will not round-up to exactly 100% because of round-off. CONCLUSION ========== "Loved ones" (oxymoron - who murders a "loved one") are quite low in the murder count. The murder of a stranger (by a a stranger obv.) is quite rare. Dope dealers that know each ARE acquaintances. TOTAL = Total number of victims of this type. FELON = Total number of victions of this type murdered during the commission of a felony (such as a burglary or robbery). I.e, you held up your dad's liquor store and killed dad or murdered your brother the bank guard during a bank hold up. SUSFL = Total number of victions of this type murdered during the commission of a suspected felony (such as a burglary or robbery). ROTRI = Total number of victions of this type murdered because of a romantic triangle.. AOMOP = Total number of victions of this type murdered because of an argument over money and/or property. OTARG = Total number of victions of this type murdered because of an argument over something besides money and/or property. MNFTY = Total number of victions of this type murdered during the commision of a non-felony crime. UNABL = Total number of victions of this type murdered for unknown reasons. *** T A B L E 1 *** ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- TOTAL FELON SUSFL ROTRI AOMOP OTARG MNFTY UNABL 19257 3730 379 414 471 6338 3586 4339 ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- Acquaintance 30.8 25.7 6.9 62.7 52.2 40.4 38.8 11.4 Unknown 29.8 32.1 82.3 2.2 3.6 8.3 10.9 75.9 Stranger 13.0 32.2 8.4 7.0 8.1 8.8 11.7 5.1 Friend 5.2 3.8 .5 7.5 19.1 8.6 4.1 1.2 Wife 4.8 .4 .5 6.2 1.1 7.3 9.5 1.6 Other family 2.9 1.4 .3 .7 4.5 5.1 3.6 .8 Husband 2.7 .1 .0 3.5 .2 4.9 4.6 .5 Girlfriend 2.6 .5 .5 5.7 1.1 5.2 2.2 1.1 Son 1.7 1.0 0 .5 .9 1.0 5.6 .5 Boyfriend 1.5 .2 0 2.0 1.3 3.4 1.1 .2 Neighbor 1.4 1.4 0 1.5 2.6 2.3 .9 .6 Brother 1.0 .2 0 .2 3.0 2.2 .9 .1 Daughter 1.0 .5 .3 0 .2 .4 4.0 .2 Father 0.7 .2 0 0 1.5 1.1 1.0 .3 Mother 0.6 .2 .3 0 .4 .8 1.0 .4 Sister 0.2 .1 0 .2 .2 .4 .1 .1 *** T A B L E 1 *** ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- TOTAL FELON SUSFL ROTRI AOMOP OTARG MNFTY UNABL 19257 3730 379 414 471 6338 3586 4339 ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- Acquaintance 5937 959 26 260 246 2561 1391 495 Unknown 5746 1197 312 9 17 526 391 3293 Stranger 2499 1201 32 29 38 558 420 221 Friend 1009 142 2 31 90 545 147 52 Wife 920 15 2 26 5 463 341 69 Other family 564 52 1 3 21 323 129 35 Husband 516 4 0 14 1 311 165 22 Girlfriend 506 19 2 24 5 330 79 48 Son 330 37 0 2 4 63 201 22 Boyfriend 285 7 0 8 6 215 39 9 Neighbor 275 52 0 6 12 146 32 26 Brother 198 7 0 1 14 139 32 4 Daughter 198 19 1 0 1 25 143 9 Father 133 7 0 0 7 70 36 13 Mother 114 7 1 0 2 51 36 17 Sister 39 4 0 1 1 25 4 4 *** T A B L E 3 *** 3293 Unknown: For unkown reasons. 2561 Acquaintance: Argument over non-money/property. 1391 Acquaintance: Miscellaneous non-felony crime. 1201 Stranger: Commission of felony. 1197 Unknown: Commission of felony. 959 Acquaintance: Commission of felony. 564 Other: Commission of felony. 558 Stranger: Argument over non-money/property. 545 Friend: Argument over non-money/property. 526 Unknown: Argument over non-money/property. 495 Acquaintance: For unkown reasons. 463 Wife: Argument over non-money/property. 420 Stranger: Miscellaneous non-felony crime. 391 Unknown: Miscellaneous non-felony crime. 341 Wife: Miscellaneous non-felony crime. 330 Girlfriend: Argument over non-money/property. 323 Other: Miscellaneous non-felony crime. 312 Unknown: Commission suspected felony. 311 Husband: Argument over non-money/property. 260 Acquaintance: Romantic triangle. 246 Acquaintance: Argument over money or property. 221 Stranger: For unkown reasons. 215 Boyfriend: Argument over non-money/property. 201 Son: Miscellaneous non-felony crime. 165 Husband: Miscellaneous non-felony crime. 147 Friend: Miscellaneous non-felony crime. 146 Neighbor: Argument over non-money/property. 143 Daughter: Miscellaneous non-felony crime. 142 Friend: Commission of felony. 139 Brother: Argument over non-money/property. 129 Other: For unkown reasons. 90 Friend: Argument over money or property. 79 Girlfriend: Miscellaneous non-felony crime. 70 Father: Argument over non-money/property. 69 Wife: For unkown reasons. 63 Son: Argument over non-money/property. 52 Neighbor: Commission of felony. 52 Friend: For unkown reasons. 52 Other: Commission suspected felony. 51 Mother: Argument over non-money/property. 48 Girlfriend: For unkown reasons. 39 Boyfriend: Miscellaneous non-felony crime. 38 Stranger: Argument over money or property. 37 Son: Commission of felony. 36 Mother: Miscellaneous non-felony crime. 36 Father: Miscellaneous non-felony crime. 32 Stranger: Commission suspected felony. 32 Neighbor: Miscellaneous non-felony crime. 32 Brother: Miscellaneous non-felony crime. 31 Friend: Romantic triangle. 29 Stranger: Romantic triangle. 26 Acquaintance: Commission suspected felony. 26 Neighbor: For unkown reasons. 26 Wife: Romantic triangle. 25 Daughter: Argument over non-money/property. 25 Sister: Argument over non-money/property. 24 Girlfriend: Romantic triangle. 22 Husband: For unkown reasons. 22 Son: For unkown reasons. 21 Other: Argument over non-money/property. 19 Girlfriend: Commission of felony. 19 Daughter: Commission of felony. 17 Unknown: Argument over money or property. 17 Mother: For unkown reasons. 15 Wife: Commission of felony. 14 Husband: Romantic triangle. 14 Brother: Argument over money or property. 13 Father: For unkown reasons. 12 Neighbor: Argument over money or property. 9 Boyfriend: For unkown reasons. 9 Daughter: For unkown reasons. 9 Unknown: Romantic triangle. 8 Boyfriend: Romantic triangle. 7 Boyfriend: Commission of felony. 7 Brother: Commission of felony. 7 Mother: Commission of felony. 7 Father: Commission of felony. 7 Father: Argument over money or property. 6 Boyfriend: Argument over money or property. 6 Neighbor: Romantic triangle. 5 Girlfriend: Argument over money or property. 5 Wife: Argument over money or property. 4 Husband: Commission of felony. 4 Brother: For unkown reasons. 4 Sister: Miscellaneous non-felony crime. 4 Sister: For unkown reasons. 4 Sister: Commission of felony. 4 Son: Argument over money or property. 3 Other: Argument over money or property. 2 Girlfriend: Commission suspected felony. 2 Mother: Argument over money or property. 2 Friend: Commission suspected felony. 2 Wife: Commission suspected felony. 2 Son: Romantic triangle. 1 Daughter: Commission suspected felony. 1 Daughter: Argument over money or property. 1 Husband: Argument over money or property. 1 Brother: Romantic triangle. 1 Sister: Romantic triangle. 1 Sister: Argument over money or property. 1 Mother: Commission suspected felony. 1 Other: Romantic triangle. 0 Boyfriend: Commission suspected felony. 0 Neighbor: Commission suspected felony. 0 Daughter: Romantic triangle. 0 Husband: Commission suspected felony. 0 Brother: Commission suspected felony. 0 Sister: Commission suspected felony. 0 Mother: Romantic triangle. 0 Father: Romantic triangle. 0 Father: Commission suspected felony. 0 Son: Commission suspected felony. Sources: UCR88 -end- -- <----------------------------------------------------------------------------> Philip K. Ronzone S e c u r e U N I X pkr@sgi.com Silicon Graphics, Inc. MS 9U-500 work (415) 335-1511 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd., Mountain View, CA 94039 fax (415) 965-2658 Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!decwrl!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!k From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere? Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:54:20 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 171 Message-ID: <26qbfs$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com> References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] RKBA.015 - Are firearms a leading cause of death of children? Version 1.1 (last changed on 91/03/15 at 12:21:18) DESCRIPTION =========== In some recent and lurid accounts in the media, the claim has been advanced that the "leading cause of death among children" is firearms. Some variations of this claim state that is the "leading cause of death of young black males". Well, this just does not sound right. In turning to factual sources, I am hampered by not having information that is up to date as I like. However, rather than wait, I have decided to post the information I do have, which in terms of "completeness", is based on 1985 data. I have checked 1990 data, which only gives death counts on a per capita basis without segragation by age groups. However, there are NO significant changes in the per capita ratios, which is a very strong indication that the 1985 figures can be rationally extrapolated. As later information is available, I will update this posting. In 1985: 27,607 children (ages under 18) died. 11,927 children died from all accidents. 6,639 children died in motor accidents. 1,613 children died by drowning. 1,249 children died from fires and/or burns. 1,445 children died from miscellaneous/other causes. 637 children died from firearms. (429 children died from ACCIDENTS involving firearms) (208 children (ages 14 and under) were murdered by firearms.) An additional 888 "children" ages 15 through 19 were murdered by firearms. The breakdown in homicides group in 5 year groups, and the group 15-19 spans what is clearly a child's age (15,16, and 17??), and ages that are not children. SUMMARY ======= Of the 27,607 deaths of children (< 18) in 1985, 637 children died from firearms (both accidents and homicides). Yet, ten times MORE children, 6,639, died in motor accident alone. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY THAT FIREARMS EVEN BEGIN TO APPROACH BEING A LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH FOR CHILDREN! Current (incomplete) 1990 statistics show that the percentages are still the same (+- 5%). CONCLUSION ========== Firearms are clearly NOT, by any stretch of the imagination, a leading cause of death for children (ages 18 and under). In facts, firearms are involved (both homicide and accidents) in ONLY 2.3% of deaths of children. =============================================================================== Deaths by age by major causes S P T A D U O H C E F P O C A D F F U U I T R I P O L S A D D H M D O R O C A A L E E S O E W F B E F I A O T N L A N T A N I U A A S T T A I D T T O T I R R R L O I H G O S H A R H N E N M L N O E E N S L S G S S S S S N R === ===== ====== ==== ==== ===== ==== === === === ==== ==== <1 3,736 4,030 890 179 90 111 2 45 14 171 278 1 3,496 2,837 863 263 204 153 5 39 25 38 136 2 3,561 1,941 792 265 177 177 12 20 12 19 110 3 3,608 1,389 653 248 124 167 10 13 3 8 80 4 3,604 1,172 548 240 95 116 14 8 1 6 68 5 3,548 996 463 242 71 73 9 2 3 6 57 6 3,428 938 454 242 54 74 9 8 2 9 56 7 3,387 775 369 202 44 60 10 6 0 2 45 8 3,256 736 342 185 47 51 12 6 2 4 35 9 3,204 723 367 192 55 45 18 6 1 11 39 10 3,317 678 313 171 44 26 27 5 0 11 29 11 3,207 728 339 177 44 35 23 7 1 12 40 12 3,277 856 402 211 57 31 37 5 2 12 47 13 3,487 1,076 522 278 72 27 38 14 4 14 75 14 3,813 1,427 681 419 82 31 52 12 8 12 65 15 3,768 1,850 929 827 99 24 57 11 10 15 86 16 3,681 2,531 1,391 1,043 125 28 52 21 19 8 95 17 3,603 2,924 1,609 1,255 129 20 42 26 18 15 104 18 3,628 3,718 2,095 1,649 150 25 53 38 19 14 147 l9 3,872 4,045 2,178 1,708 123 37 37 36 33 14 190 20 4,052 4,144 2,168 1,646 t49 37 60 46 38 11 181 21 4,134 4,613 2,367 1,77S 137 53 51 56 54 21 220 22 4,169 4,601 2,168 1,584 142 50 52 45 75 17 203 23 4,250 4,698 2,144 1,537 156 51 32 48 66 13 241 --- ------ ------ ------ ------ ----- ---- --- --- --- --- ----- TOT 87,744 54,207 26,269 17,612 2,516 1446 755 543 491 309 2,597 TOT 62,981 27,607 11,927 6,639 1,613 1,249 429 254 125 373 1,445 <18 Source for above: NSC88 ============================================================================== Murder by age group by weapon Uniform Crimes <--------------------- MURDER WEAPON ------------------------> S E N S U F S X A T F I C T O P R R F R U A B P L C A O T E T B B J H O O O N C E O A T B L E A F I S F T G A T A T R I A I U C N E S I I I L T H G A M N N N N T D E O V R C E E E E L S G D G T S S T N E E S D D R ===== ====== ===== ===== ==== ==== == == === == == == === <1 190 4 16 9 91 0 0 7 1 1 21 40 1-4 325 47 26 20 147 0 0 16 5 0 17 47 5-9 150 45 24 12 33 0 0 9 0 8 6 13 10-14 215 112 43 18 13 0 0 6 1 9 3 10 15-19 1,347 888 283 35 43 0 0 17 2 18 6 55 20-24 2,734 1,714 654 107 103 0 1 18 2 47 6 82 25-29 2,973 1,987 617 102 111 0 0 22 6 44 8 76 30-34 2,397 1,529 530 104 106 0 2 18 4 45 4 55 35-39 1,796 1,130 397 92 77 2 1 19 3 24 4 47 40-44 1,291 810 243 73 75 1 2 15 3 22 3 44 45-49 890 527 187 64 63 0 1 13 0 10 4 21 5O-54 686 364 158 62 55 1 1 13 1 11 0 20 55-59 613 340 134 62 32 1 0 6 1 11 2 24 60-64 507 242 109 56 46 1 3 13 0 10 5 22 60-69 363 159 69 45 37 0 0 14 0 15 9 15 70-74 260 98 54 36 27 0 0 8 2 12 4 19 >74 425 111 90 61 86 1 0 19 0 17 11 29 unknown 383 189 60 14 35 0 0 10 0 7 2 66 ----- ------ ----- ----- ---- ---- -- -- --- -- -- -- --- <18 1,452 580 226 76 303 0 0 47 8 25 47 140 >=18 15,710 9,527 3,408 882 842 7 1 186 23 279 66 479 Total 17,545 10,296 3,694 972 1,180 7 11 243 31 311 115 685 Source: UCR85 -end- Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!decwrl!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!k From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere? Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:54:40 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 254 Message-ID: <26qbgg$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com> References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] RKBA.016 - Is the United States the most violent nation? Version 1.2 (last changed on 91/03/22 at 13:05:06) DESCRIPTION =========== A spate of media "claims" implying that the United States is the highest crime rate nations in the world has been observed in the media recently. However, if we were to look at homicide, rape, and larceny (burglary, robbery, etc.) we find a quite different story. In homicide, the US is number 11, with a murder rate of 9.60 per 100,000. The nearest European country in the Netherlands, with a homicide rate of 7.15 per 100,000. However, elimination of high crime inner city rates pushes the per capita down to 3.77, below such countries as Luxemburg (5.25), Finland (4.88), West Germany (4.47), Scotland (3.82), and somewhat barely above Sweden (3.36). Places such as Norway are not known to have massive illegal aliens, drug misuse problems, or large cultural inhomogeneities. Of even more interest is the TREMENDOUSLY larger per capita rape numbers in the "non-violent peace loving" European counties. The Unites States at 26.30 is below such countries as Australia (90.82), West Germany (77.49), New Zealand (65.73), Netherlands (56.00), Scotland (44.69), Denmark (41.06), Sweden (40.52), Austria (30.42). In the category of larceny (robbery, burglary etc.), the United States is below Italy and New Zealand, and somewhat above Denmark, West Germany, Scotland, Sweden, Austria, and England & Wales. CONCLUSION ========== The United States is NOT the most violent country in the world. While high in homicide, there are several European nations that have similar per capita homicide rates, without the presence of large scale drug problems or immigrant & illegal alien situations. In terms of rape, the US lags TREMENDOUSLY behind some of the "civilized" and "non-violent" European countries. In larceny (burglary, robbery), the US is again not a leader. In short, given all the problems that the US has that European countries do NOT have, the US is surprisingly non-violent (relatively speaking). H O M I C I D E PER ABSOLUTE RANK COUNTRY 100,000 NUMBERS ==== ========================== ======= ======== 01 Lesotho 140.81 1,592 02 Bahamas 22.88 45 03 Guyana 22.21 610 05 Netherlands Antilles 12.47 29 06 Iraq 11.94 1,243 07 Sri Lanka 11.92 1,597 08 Cyprus 11.11 71 09 Trinidad & Tobago 10.41 113 10 Jamaica 10.25 205 11 United States 9.60 18,155 12 Kuwait 9.18 78 13 Tanzania 8.98 1,295 14 Kenya 8.66 1,047 15 Madagascar 8.14 692 16 Burma 8.06 2,304 17 Venezuela 7.19 834 18 Netherlands 7.15 964 19 Chile 6.69 723 20 St.Kitts-Nevis-Anguilla 6.67 4 21 Jordan 6.06 103 22 Syria 5.52 331 23 Luxembourg 5.25 21 24 Mali 5.02 251 25 Finland 4.88 229 26 Malawi 4.57 183 27 West Germany 4.47 2,771 28 Monaco 4.40 1 29 Sierra Leone 4.00 120 30 Sconand 3.82 199 31 Libya 3.77 85 32 Egypt 3.45 1,241 33 India 3.40 19,480 34 Sweden 3.36 275 35 Austria 3.06 229 36 Italy 2.95 1,643 37 Singapore 2.77 62 38 Nigeria 2.75 1,510 39 Australia & Papua New Guinea 2.73 411 40 France 2.70 1,429 41 Philippines 2.68 1,106 42 Hong Kong 2.59 110 43 Malaysia 2.49 298 44 Peru 2.44 376 45 England & Wales 2.24 1,102 46 Denmark 2.03 102 47 Japan 1.74 1,912 48 New Zealand 1.51 46 49 South Korea 1.33 460 50 Zaire 1.19 286 51 Molocco 1.11 199 52 Ivory Coast 1.09 63 53 Solomon Islands 1.08 2 54 Greece 0.87 77 55 Indonesia 0.87 1,120 56 Uganda 0.83 83 57 Fiji 0.71 4 58 Spain 0.67 233 59 Norway 0.50 20 ------------------------ R A P E ----------------- PER ABSOLUTE RANK COUNTRY 100,000 NUMBERS ==== ======================== ======= ======== 1 Australia 90.82 13,674 2 West Germany 77.49 48,075 3 Solomon Islands 76.96 142 4 Venezuela 66.84 7,754 5 New Zealand 65.73 2,000 6 Bahamas 62.02 122 7 Libya 56.58 1,277 8 Netherlands 56.00 7,554 9 England & Wales 50.20 24,698 10 Lesotho 49.53 560 11 Kuwait 48.35 411 12 Netherlands Antilles 46.96 109 13 Scotland 44.69 2,330 14 Denmark 41.06 2,068 15 Sweden 40.52 3,313 16 Guyana 34.50 264 17 Hong Kong 32.97 1,401 18 Austria 30.42 2,274 19 Peru 29.14 4,482 20 St. Kitts-Nevis-Anguilla 26.67 16 21 Monaco 26.41 6 22 United States 26.30 40,168 23 France 26.19 13,828 24 Fiji 26.07 147 25 Lebanon 25.93 778 26 Trinidad & Tobago 25.23 274 27 Jamaica 24.95 499 28 Norway 23.43 931 23 Chile 22.51 2,362 30 Uganda 16.48 1,648 31 South Korea 13.90 4,854 32 Morocco 12.69 2,284 33 Spain 12.21 4,310 34 Italy 11.87 6,605 35 Malawi 11.45 458 36 Tanzania 10.31 1,487 37 Japan 10.30 11,338 38 Kenya 9.76 1,180 39 Finland 9.44 443 40 Luxembourg 9.25 37 41 Jordan 7.71 131 42 Sierra Leone 7.47 224 43 Zaire 5.85 1,404 44 Mali 5.60 280 45 Malaysia 4.72 564 46 Burma 3.79 1,085 47 Singapore 3.67 82 48 Iraq 3.65 380 49 Madagascar 3.25 276 50 Nigeria 2 60 1,428 51 Greece 2.31 203 52 Sri Lanka 1.53 205 53 Philippines 1.08 447 54 Indonesia 0.90 1,162 55 Cyprus 0.63 40 56 Syria 0.52 31 57 India 0.51 2,919 58 Egypt 0.34 122 59 Ivory Coast 0.17 10 -------------------- L A R C E N Y ----------------- PER ABSOLUTE RANK COUNTRY 100,000 NUMBERS ==== ======================== ======== ========= 1 Italy 2,355.68 1,310,798 2 Bahamas 2,267.83 4,461 3 New Zealand 2,193.93 66,757 4 United States 1,744.00 2,641,000 5 Denmark 1,723.71 86,809 6 West Germany 1,611.12 999,861 7 Guyana 1,555.07 11,901 8 Scotland 1,486.65 77,499 9 Sweden 1,427.51 116,723 10 Austria 1,214.16 90,771 11 England & Wales 1,001.11 492,498 12 Australia & Papua New Guinea 888.63 133,795 13 Netherlands 863.72 2,009 14 Lesotho 861.05 9,735 15 Norway 815.00 32,380 16 Netherlands Antilles 802.19 108,190 17 Luxembourg 493.00 1,972 18 Hong Kong 450.18 19,128 19 Trinidad & Tobago 428.14 4,649 20 Jamaica 402.75 8,055 21 France 387.70 204,630 22 Spain 360.54 127,215 23 Peru 333.89 51,362 24 Fiji 275.27 1,552 25 St. Kitts-Nevis-Anguilla 256.67 154 26 Chile 231.85 24,331 27 South Korea 231.60 80,348 28 Monaro 215.66 49 29 Venezuela 199.41 23,131 30 Malawi 197.42 7,897 31 Tanzania 155.24 22,384 32 Cyprus 149.61 956 33 Lebanon 145.30 4,359 34 Kenya 133.28 16,101 35 Finland 131.38 6,163 36 Nigeria 126.86 69,775 37 Kuwait 101.76 865 38 Sierra Leone 96.67 2,900 39 Solomon Islands 91.06 168 40 Singapore 78.04 1,745 41 India 66.19 379,412 42 Libya 50.15 1,132 43 Sri Lanka 31.68 4,243 44 Madagascar 27.25 2,316 45 Jordan 22.71 386 46 Morocco 21.10 3,798 47 Zaire 21.07 5,059 48 Malaysia 20.84 2,493 49 Mali 19.08 954 50 Burma 14.95 4,275 51 Syria 12.00 720 52 Ivory Coast 10.96 636 53 Uganda 5.36 536 54 Indonesia 2.95 3,802 55 Iraq 2.79 290 56 Philippines 2.09 865 57 Japan 1.94 2,140 58 Greece 1.18 104 Sources: BWR84 -end- -- --- --- phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) Hey, let's nuke "The Simpsons" and replace it with the "Itchy & Scratch Show"! These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em! (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...) Path: tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!decwrl!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!k From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere? Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:55:30 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 89 Message-ID: <26qbi2$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com> References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] {If there are any RKBA beyond 016, I don't know about them. - Steve Kao} RKBA.999 - Complete list of all sources Version 1.1 (last changed on 90/04/25 at 23:22:54) INTRODUCTION ============ The RKBA.nnn series are a (hopefully) growing set of small (60-100 lines typically) postings that address common questions and myths about all aspects of firearms. It is posted to talk.politics.guns on a regular basis (yet to be determined as to what is appropriate). All sources for the RKBA.nnn articles are kept here. SOURCES ======= The following is a complete (and growing) list of all the sources used in the RKBA.nnn listings. BCS88 - The California Department of Justice, Division of Law Enforcement, Criminal Identification and Information Branch, Bureau of Criminal Statistics and Special Services, BCS Outlook Crime 1988 in Selected California Law Enforcement Jurisdictions, January through December, March 1989. BCS89 - The California Department of Justice, Division of Law Enforcement, Criminal Identification and Information Branch, Bureau of Criminal Statistics and Special Services, BCS Outlook Crime 1989 in Selected California Law Enforcement Jurisdictions, January through June, August 1989. BJS81 - U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, The National Crime Survey: Working Papers, Volume I: Current and Historical Perspectives, Washington, DC, December 1981. BJS86 - U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, The Use of Weapons in Committing Crimes, Washington, DC, 1986. BOC75 - U.S. Bureau of the Census, Historical Statistics of the United States, Colonial Times to 1970, Bicentennial Edition, Part 2, Washington, DC, 1975. BOC83 - U.S. Bureau of the Census, Statistical Abstract of the United States: 1982-83. (103th edition.) Washington, DC, 1982 [sic].. BOC89 - U.S. Bureau of the Census, Statistical Abstract of the United States: 1989 (109th edition.) Washington, DC, 1989. CJS83 - United States Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics, 1983. CJS87 - United States Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics, 1987. EZELL - Edward Clinton Ezell, Small Arms of the World, 12th edition, Stackpole Books, Harrisburg, PA, 1983. MCPHEE - McPhee, John, La Place de la Concorde Suisse, Farrar/Strauss/Giroux, NY, 1984. NSC88 - National Safety Council, Accident Facts 1988 Edition, Chicago, IL, 1988. Available via Customer Service, National Service Council, 444 N. Michigan Ave., Chicago, Illinois 60611. (800) 621-7619. TIM06FEB89 - TIME magazine, volume 133, issue number 6, February 6, 1989 issue, cover titled "ARMED AMERICA More guns, more shootings, more massacres", cover illustration is a drawn outline of the continental USA distorted as the upper part of a skull with eye sockets and nose, with a crossed AR15 and AK47S below. UCR82 - U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Reports 1982. UCR85 - U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Reports 1985. UCR87 - U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Reports 1987. UCR89 - U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Reports 1989. -end- --------------------- If you don't see the moral answer to the problem, use -- Phil Ronzone pkr@sgi.COM {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr --------------------- the universal can opener: "Whose property/life is it?" --