From owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Wed Nov 15 02:27:05 1995 From: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca To: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: BOUNCE cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: Approval required Content-Length: 14906 Status: RO X-Lines: 368 From: andre sponselee Subject: Last highlight of Senate hearings on C68, Sept 1995 Highlights of Senate hearings on C68, Sep. 28, 1995 --------------------------------------- Ms Wendy Cukier, Coalition for Gun Control: -I am a professor in the Faculty of Business Administra- tion at Ryerson. I am not a lawyer, but we've had con- siderable legal council in preparing our position. -Gun control can be viewed as a large or small problem depending on the denominator you choose to use. Our co- alition feels that it is a sufficient problem, that we must take advantage of the opportunity which has presented itself to us with this legislation. -Rifles and shotguns account for almost 50% of guns seized in crime, handguns only 20%, of which a sizable proportion were legally owned. -Highly motivated individuals will always find ways to have access to guns, however, there are many crimes and suicides which are impulsive and could be prevented with stricter measures. --------------------------------- Mr David Cassels, Edmonton Police Force: Edmonton Police Services support Bill C68 and to under- score the CACP's support as one of the members of the 360 groups that are members of the Coalition for Gun Control. -Bill C68 is a positive, preventative and powerful piece of legislation which will reduce crime, save lives and assist police in their work. --We support all aspects of the bill, and in particular the cornerstone of the legislation, the registration of all firearms. ---------------------------------- Ms Cukier: -The screening process for the current FAC is a tremendous improvement over what existed prior to Bill C17. However, only 1/3 of firearm owners have valid FACs and fewer than 10% have gone through the screening process. One of the principle advantages of this legislation is the requirement for possession permits. -The OICs and ability to ban military weapons is an import- ant component. -We have a strong legal opinion that the inspection powers contained in this legislation do not infringe on the Cana- dian Charter of Rights. -Under current legislation the firearms officer may not in- quire as to the number of firearms an FAC applicant owns or intends to aquire. That is there to protect the ability of people to own guns and keep it a secret. ---------------------------------- Sen. St.Germain: Dep.Chief Cassels, in regards to your police force....what are you doing exactly in enforcing Bill C17 in the city of Edmonton....(re:safe storage)... have you laid any charges under the new provisions? Mr Cassels: Yes...I do not have the number here, but I would say several. Sen. St.Germain: You have the right to seize weapons in case of dangerous offenders where threats have been made. Do you utilize that section of the criminal code? Mr Cassels: Yes we do, however not to a great degree. When our patrol officers determine that something must be done immediately to seize weapons in the interest of public safety it is applied. Sen. St.Germain: Do you not think that the monies of this expensive program (registration system) would be better spent on more police, better training and better equipment to assist you in enforcing the present laws? Mr Cassels: It gives the police the tools to do the job therefore it makes us more efficient and in fact could save money in complex or simple investigations. Sen. Carstairs: Your organization represents 360 organi- zations. How many people do you represent. Ms Cukier: Twenty million. Sen. Carstairs: You stated that only 10% of gun owners have actually gone through the screening process.... Are there any studies that would indicate that owners of new guns who were the only ones subject to this process are any more likely to commit crime than owners of older guns who have not had to go through this process? Ms Cukier: The new legislation has not been in place long enough to do that type of study. There have been cases of people who have owned guns for 20 or 30 years and applied for an FAC. When police looked into their background they determined that these were not individuals who should have access to firearms. Sen. Adams: How are you funded? Ms Cukier: 90% of our funding is from individual donations from people across Canada. Very few of our endorsers make financial contributions. We received recently $10,000 from the Ottawa Regional Police Department. In the past we have received donations from municipal governments in crime provincial (prevention?) councils. 10% of our funding in a typical year comes from police forces or municipal councils. We do not, nor have we ever, received funding from the federal government or from any of the provincial governments. Sen. Adams: Do you believe that the witnesses we have had here from Saskatchewan or Alberta, the gun owners are just "showing off"? That is the impression I got from your brief. Ms Cukier: We respect to the interests of gun owners. Gun owning is a priviledge, not a right. At the same time, registration is about owning guns and keeping it a secret. It is about whethere you should be allowed to own guns and keep it a secret. Sen. Doyle: I assume you are supporting all aspects of this bill? Ms Cukier: Yes. Sen. Doyle: That would include aspects which we are told would remove the likelihood of future examinations like this one because it would empower the minister to make changes without coming back for parliamentary authority. Ms Cukier: Are you refering to the OIC provisions? Sen. Doyle: Yes, exactly. Ms Cukier: We were told that the OIC power to ban firearms not reasonable for hunting is not unusual. Is it a good use of Parliament's time every time there is a new variant of a military weapon to bring legislation forward to ban that particular weapon or does it make sense to rely on OIC power? Sen. Doyle: I have never seen any change in legislation under any element where a word was precisely and explicitly removed or changed without there being a purpose. That is an alarm signal. That is one of the reasons for examining this bill. We have some reservations about things like registration. We certainly have reservations about the powers of ministers. Sen. Ghitter: In terms of misinformation you described earlier, this is an area where misinformation seems to be creeping into the rhetoric around this particular issue. Clause 119, part six says: For greater certainty, a regu- lation may be made under Part III of the Criminal Code without being laid before either House or Parliament. Now this means to me that the minister, in his discretion can, without any overview by parliament, add to the Criminal Code of Canada and create criminals by regulation. Ms Cukier: I am not a lawyer. I was referring specifically to the ban on specific weapons through OIC and the change there.....My understanding is that there is nothing unusual based on the consultation with our lawyers. Sen. Ghitter: Could you take it back to your lawyeres, and if I am wrong I would be most interrested in receiving that information. Ms Cukier: You believe this is substantially different than the regulatory powers contained in Bill C17? Sen. Ghitter: That is my understanding. I stand to be corrected. Sen. St.Germain: If they are in Bill C17, it does not make it right necessarily. Sen. Doyle: It has been my experience that when any govern- ment tells you not to worry, then you should have your guard up. Sen. Andreychuk: We have started this morning talking about misinformation...there is certainly on all sides of this issue too much misinformation. I want to go on record to disassociate myself with two statements. First I want to disassociate myself with Sen. De Bane's outrageous, shocking and unwarranted attack on three Ministers of Justice and/or Attorneys-General from Saskatchewan, Alberta, Manitoba, Yukon and the Northwest territories---that the Ministers of Justice, their repre- sentation of citizens, is equal to representations made before us by coalitions, interest groups and lobbyists. It is incumbent on this Senate to be responsibly adhering to the Constitution of Canada. The Ministers of Justice from those territories and provinces do speak for their people, They are duly elected. We are here looking at the making of the law and administering of th law. It is very important that they not be treated as an interest group or a lobby group. Aborigional people, farmers and trappers are very concer- ned about the signals and the symbols that this registra- tion is giving. Ministers think it is futile to go through the registration because it will not add to public safety. Whether they are right or wrong remains to be seen. Edmon- ton has a heavy aborigional base. It is still a rural- oriented community. Have you thought about whether you are contravening aborigional rights, whether section 35 of the Constitution has been adhered to? Mr Cassels: I have taken it into account and given it se- rious consideration. I believe, because of the opportu- nity to prevent occurances from happening, to be able to help others, to be able to detect, to be able to investi- gate, to be able to hold people accountable with weapons, with firearms, that the bill is in the public interest. Sen. Andreychuk: It seems that the aborigional , rural, trapping and supporting communitees, the museums, and col- lectors will disproportionately bear the responsibility for making this act work. Mr Cassels: I do not believe it is a major inconvenience and is not undully harsh on any particular group. Sen. Andreychuk: It was not the harshness. We are sending a symbol that guns and violence are not tolerated in our society. This minority group is saying ,"The symbol we want to send is that guns are part of our culture and our way of life. We use guns safely and we teach safety. Mr Cassels: In my opinion it is reasonable. It is not im- posing on any particular group. It deals with gun owners generally. For those who do not own guns, registration has no impact on them. Sen. Stanbury: Many of my friends have guns and are law- abiding citizens. It seems to me that they are the people who are most to benefit from the public safety aspects of this bill. Mr Cassels: They do. It is easier to hold people accoun- table. We may be able to interrupt a young offender in- volved in a house break in. We can sit down with that young person and help them start a better way of life. Registration provides us with that opportunity. Sen. Ghitter: I went to a 40-year officer in your police force whom I've known for years. He told me this legisla- tion is worthless. He said it will do no good and will divert forces from the street shuffling paper. I went to a police chief in Alberta who said the real prob- lem was with safe storage of guns and that it had nothing to do with registration. I went to see the Saskatchewan police chiefs. I heard what members of the RCMP were say- ing. Credible people were taking these different sides. Mr Cassels: Different individuals have different opinions ...the groups which represent formally the majority of po- lice officers in Canada support the bill. Sen. Ghitter: Ontario said they could take the money and have 5900 more police officers on the street, not to mention 30,000 more hours. When they tell us that, who are we to believe. Mr Cassels: I look at it from a practical perspective: How will registration help us do our job. I look at how that money will be used in a positive way. It will pro- vide us with the tools to do the job. It does not matter how many officers you put on the street unless you give them the authority and tools to do the job, it cannot be done. Ms Cukier: The position Mr Runciman brought forward is that smuggled guns are the principal problem. We have said in our brief, smuggled guns are not the principal problem in Canada. They are most certainly not the prin- cipal problem in Ontario. Project Gun Runner looked at smuggled guns. It is not surprising that it showed smug- gled guns were a problem. Sen. Sparrow: It was stated today that owning a gun is a priviledge, not a right. I must question that, because everything is a right unless it is taken away from you by law and it becomes a priviledge then to do something. If I own a gun now, and it is not against the law to own it, then that is my right. Ms Cukier: I refer you to the Supreme Court decision in Hasselwander which states explicitely that Canadians, un- like Americans, do not have the Constitutional right to bear arms. Sen. Sparrow: That is not answering the question. Chairman: It was Mr Justice Cory who said that in Canada we do not have the constitutional right to bear arms, how- ever, even in the United States it is controversial. That being said, I do not think that is the question you were asked. Sen. Sparrow: Owning a rifle in Canada happens to be a right. It is not a priviledge. It is a right because the right has not been taken away from the farmer to own a gun. Thus it is a right and not a priviledge. That is very crucial. Ms Cukier: I am not a lawyer. However, there was a question raised as to whether or not we have property rights in Canada and how constrained or expansive they are. The opin- ion has been brought forward that this legislation does not infringe on rights. This is not about the right to own guns but about the right to own guns and not share that information. That is what is at the core of registration. Should one be allowed to have guns without a licence and without registration. That is the core of the issue. ------------------------------- In the various highlights presented, I've endeavoured to maintain the general flavour of the conversations while re- ducing overall content. I believe, in that respect, that I have treated all parties equally and without favor. browsing through 750 pages of testimony was certainly eye opening, and gave me an understanding of the Senate commit- tee and presentors that I did not have previously. I hope that insight was passed on. Hunter --------------------------------------- --=====================_816452831==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" **************************************************************************** ********* Andre Sponselee, CD, SSM "Ponder the path of thy feet, and Site 485, C19, RR4 Courtenay let all thy ways be established" B.C., Canada, V9N 7J3 Proverbs 4:5 (604) 334-3996 E-mail: hunter@comox.island.net http://www.comox.island.net/~hunter **************************************************************************** ********* --=====================_816452831==_--