From owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Tue Nov 7 13:49:22 1995 From: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca To: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: BOUNCE cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: Approval required Content-Length: 10624 Status: RO X-Lines: 272 From: andre sponselee Highlights of senate hearings Sep. 21 pm Mr Jim Grayston, Ontario Tourist Outfitters: -Over 1.5 million Canadians and almost 40,000 US residents hunt wildlife in Canada annually and spend $1.2 billion on such things as transportation, food, accomodation, guides. -$100 million "new" dollars are spent by American hunters in Ontario annually. Ontario hunters also spend $325 mil lion annually on game hunting. -Hunting revenues provide needed business in the spring and fall shoulder seasons. -More restrictive gun control legislation threatens to seriously erode this spending and the resulting jobs and economic benefits. -The federal government estimates over 2 million households in Canada own firearms for a total of 6 million firearms. The NFA puts the legally owned firearms at 21 million. -Premier Mike Harris formally stated his government's oppo- sition to bill C68 in mid-August, joining Manitoba, Alberta, Saskatchewan and two Territories in formal opposition to the bill. -NOTO fears additional restrictions will cause many out- doorsmen and outdoorswomen to reconsider their involvement and spending on hunting-related tourism activities. -NOTO believes bill C68 will cause a great deal of economic hardship to our industry. ------------------------------------------------ Mr Len Romaniuk, Saskatchewan Outfitters Association: -In Canada, we foster love for our knife and gun now more than ever. We own them. We hold them. We clean them. We feel them. We look at them and take pride in them just as an art collector takes pride in a fine painting. Firearms have always been a part of our culture. -One man, Alan Rock, has stated that he intends to change that culture. Joseph Stalin and Adolf Hitler also changed their countries' cultures. -Many rural and Northern (Sask.) residents have little ac- cess to employment opportunities. For several months of the year these people often turn to trapping, guiding and out- fitting for income.. -Language barriers, geographical barriers and financial strains as well as past criminal and/or health record and age are all road blocks. -The outfitting industry impacts strongly on rural and Northern Sask. The anti-gun legislation can be said to be anti-hunting as it makes access to firearms for young hun- ters very difficult and will make keeping of firearms too expensive for the casual shooter or hunter. -Allan Rock's December 1994 statement "I envision a Canada where only the military and police have firearms" enforces the fear of inevitable confiscation. This bears a strong resemblance to Nazi Germany and communist Russia. -The means used by Allan Rock and Jean Chretien to force this bill through legislature is even more reminiscent of those governments. -It is apparent that the Justice Minister has a one-track mind with a clear agenda. -Allan Rock or Wendy Cuckier do not like guns. (There are several pages that continue in this vein and don't really add anything new) ------------------------------------------------------- Sen. Carstairs: Mr. Chairman, let me begin by saying that I found the presentation of the Saskatchewan Outfitters Association highly offensive. I find it offensive when you accuse government people of behaviour similar to that of Stalin and Hitler. As a result, quite frankly, I find my- self discounting every single thing you have to say because when you reach that level of rhetoric you damage your own case. To the individual who represents the Northern Ontario Tourist Outfitters, do you know where the NFA comes up with the figure of 21 million shotguns and rifles legally owned in Canada? A UN sponsored survey reported that 26% of Canadians--over 7 million people--own firearms at approximately 2.67 firearms per individual. Sen. pearson: The UN figure is 26% of households not people. Mr Romanuik: It states that the UN reported that 26% of Canadians, or over 7 million people own firearms. Sen. Carstairs: That is not correct. It is 26% of house- holds. Sen. Pearson: They misquote the UN; it is households. Sen. Carstairs: Gary Mauser bases his study on the present cost of the FAC rather than on the process whereby those who alreade own firearms would obtain their liccence by fil- ling out a form and having a CPIC check? Mr. Grayston: In Ontario, our government has worked very hard atdoing a cost recovery basis for permits. We would all realize that the level of civil service saleries, over- head, computer costs and storage and enforcement costs could not be reflected by a $10 permit. Yes, I pay $10 for my permit, but what is the real cost? Sen. Carstairs: It is my understanding that many of the Americans who come north to hunt do so because there is a different availability of species for them to hunt. Mr. Grayston: In Ontarion, American hunters come to hunt bear, moose and deer. They can readily find those in other places.Also many hunters fish as well as hunt. They come to have a combined experience. If I were to take you from Thunder Bay to the Manitoba border and from Lake of the Woods to James Bay, there are 700 businesses that have 100% visitation by Americans. If they do not come, there will be many closures. Mr. Romanuik: There are no species to hunt in Canada that are not available somewhere in the US or Russia. Russia nd the European countries are opening up with no gun control restrictions. Sen: Ghitter: I share Sen. Carstairs view that it does your argument little good to be comparing Canada to Nazi Germany. I am sympathetic to you because I think you are concerned that your livelihood and your life work is at stake. I understand why you make the comments you make but hasten to add that I do not think it does your argument any good in this forum. Mr. Rock left us with the impression that it would be simple for American tourists to come to Canada and that it would not adversely affect, what you tell me, a $1.2 billion industry. I do not understand what an American will have to face with respect to the registration system. Mr. Romanuik: We are already seeing problems arise because of a registration system that has not yet passed. Northwest Outfitters report as having documented cases that American hunters were held up at customs by registration forms that are not supposed to exist because the bill has not passed. They tried to make these hunters register their firearms according to the new bill. They also tried to charge them a $60 registration fee. This bill has not passed yet these things happened. I personally had one hunter who, in Saskatoon airport, was held up at customs who tried to make him register and pay a $60 registration fee. Where these figures, forms and fees come from, I do not know. They have come up already and the bill has not been passed. In Mexico, because of non-residents bird hunters having to register, people going to that country have dropped from 20,000 to 10,000. Undoubtedly registration has something to do with that. I was hunting in Alaska three weeks ago and was held up at customs because I brought a firearm with me. They shuffled me off into another room and had me sit there because I had a firearm. Sen. Ghitter: How do you ballance the concern about smug- gling with an element of control in a reasonable way. Just as you were delayed at the border in Alaska for the same concern. Mr. Romanuik: I was detained at customs in Saskatoon, not Alaska. There I had no problem. Smuggled guns are coming in semi-trailers that are not in- spected and trunks of cars that are wave through customs. They are not being smuggled in by a hunter stopped at the border who is asked "what is your purpose" to which he re- plies "I am going to Saskatchewan to hunt" "Do you have a firearm?" "Yes". It is the hunter who will be stopped to register that gun, not the fellow who has a trunk full who says "I have nothing, I was just shopping" Sen. Adams: The Americans (coming to the territories) are concerned that as soon as this registration becomes compu- terized the states will find out that he has a gun regis- tered in Canada. Mr. Romanuik: Criminal checks with CPIC through customs are available now. Bill C68 does not give customs officers any more tools for screening people. Sen. Lewis: What was your position on bills C51 and C17? Mr. Romanuik: Our association was against C51 and C17 for the same reason we are against C68. We knew that would not be the end of what was promissed. Sen. Lewis: You would like to see no controls whatsoever. Mr. Romanuik: We have grown with the FACs and safe hounding (hunting?) regulations that are now in place under C17. Those are good. Some components were not justifiable. The registration system we are told is $10 . In 1977 the FAC was $10 for 5 years, now it is a $50 permit for 5 years. The $10 for registration will be on a sliding scale. What does that mean? How fast will it slide? Sen. Lewis: Do you think with registration it would really be registration of legally held guns? Mr. Romanuik: That is all we will have. Sen. Lewis: with the computer system it would be easier to keep track of legal arms. We will be able to distinguish between legal and illegal firearms. The move is to get rid of illegal ones. Will this not help? Mr. Romanuik: What is the difference if a person is mur- dered with a legally held gun or illegally held gun. After a gun is used in a crime, it is done away with. Sen. Lewis: I am not talking about whether it is used in a crime or not. There is a question of domestic violence and the help it might be there. Mr. Romanuik: Stats show that in domestic violence only 19% of the time a gun is used, even if it's there. Sen. lewis: How often does not matter. There is a certain number, that is the tragedy. Mr. Romanuik: I agree, however if there are better that $85 million can be spent to save more lives, then that is more beneficial. Sen. DeWare: Many of us have concerns about the tourism industry in this country. Could our guides make application and send down a registration card, have that registration card filled out so that they have it as they cross the bor- der, or have it registered before they get here? Mr. Romanuik: It is possible to arrange that. However, the problem is the non-resident hunter does not want to put his name and gun serial number down there. -------------------------------------------------------- Andre Sponselee, CD, SSM From owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Wed Nov 8 01:53:43 1995 From: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca To: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: BOUNCE cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: Approval required Content-Length: 11845 Status: RO X-Lines: 308 From: andre sponselee Highlights of senate hearings, Sep 21, pm Mr William bateman, Ontario arms collectors: -A significant economic impact will be experienced when firearms fall within the prohibited catagory due to the ban on resale. -Historically many collectible and recreational firearms were produced with 4 inch barrels. -One solution is to amend the bill to increase minimum bbl size to 105mm -The catagories of .25 and .32 calibre likewise place a burden on legitimate collectors. - The ban on replica firearms will have a significant effect on thousands of Canadians who participate in re-enactment associations. Any reference to replica firearms should be deleted from the bill. ---------------------------------------- Ms Judith Ross, OACA: -One or two amendmends will not be sufficient to deal with the many serious problems with this bill. -It is totally illogical to consider registration a means of crime control. -Normally law-abiding citizens will be criminalized for non-compliance. -There is a serious violation of civil liberties and right to privacy in clauses 101,102,104 that permit entry into one's premises. -Clause 103 denies the right to councel or to silence. -There is a reverse onus on the presumption of innocence. -Prohibition is confiscation without compensation and with- out any sensible reason. -Clauses 29 and 117 regulate actiuvities at shooting clubs, ranges and gun shows even though there has never been a suggestion of a criminal problem in these settings. -Clauses 117, 118, 119 give the Minister of Justice extraor- dinarily broad and absolute power to do what he wants with- out check by parliament. He will be able to prohibit firearms that in his opinion are "unreasonable for hunting and sporting purposes". This is a significant change from the present wording of "not commonly used for hunting or sporting purposes". -The new wording does not allow for court challenges because the Justice Minister is given the right to prohibit solely on the basis of his opinion. -It is important to consider why this area of legislation shall be different from all others that require notice to Parliament and allow for discussion in Parliament. ----------------------------------------------------- Mr Steven Torino, Association of Semi-Automatic Firearms Collectors of Quebec: -We find it almost unbelievable that the government accepts the premise that voluntary or mandatory registration of an unknown number of firearms owned by an unknown number of Canadians will be the solution to crime, domestic violence, etc., and also that Canadians will voluntarily register all their firearms. -Of particular concern to Quebec collectors are sections 28 and 30 of the firearms act. We have asked twice for the retention of the genuine gun collector catagory which has been removed from various versions of bill C68. We ask that it be kept seperate from the firearms collector category. -Our members fear confiscation if each five years our re- gistrar does not believe that they are using the firearms for the intended purposes stated when they aquired them. The registrar may also revoke a registration certificate for any good reason. This type of confiscation at the dis- cretion of a civil servant is still the basis for fear of confiscation. -Clause 102(d) questions the equality rights under the Charter since 11 firearms and a gun collection grants un- limited access to a dwelling.What happened to due process and the right to be secure against unreasonable search and seizure. -Other points of concern are OICs and backdated prohibitions. ------------------------------------------------------ Ms Edith Iwama, OACA: -During the war, the Gestapo came into my house and con- fiscated some property without compensation. Several years ago, I lost a gun to the Canadian government. It was a similar feeling to that which I had during the war. -Allan Rock says that registration will facilitate the enforcement of prohibition orders. It clearly means he has in mind to prohibit more firearms. -In BC and Ontario two computer hackers were caught. They had a print-out of the restricted firearms owners. It is like a giant shopping list. -------------------------------------------------------- Ms Ross: Although items can be passed on, it is virually worthless in financial terms and many people have put to- gether collections as a matter of investment. Sen. Carstairs: You may have purchased a crib prior to 1986 which you cannot sell now because that crib is il- legal to sell. Ms Ross: Nobody is planning to retire because they have a collection of cribs, but there are people with collections of firearms that are worth tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars and these are investments for them. Sen. Carstairs: An amendment was made to the Act with re- spect to the inspection process. Have you heard from them since those amendments were made? Ms Ross: One change indicated there had to be more than 10 firearms in that dwelling. The average target shooter might very well have more than 10 firearms. I do not con- sider that change particularly comforting. Sen. Andreychuk: Regarding backdating, I have letters com- plaining that the government is proceeding as if the act were already in force. Mr Torino: The applicant agrees basically that he has understood all the sections and the ramifications of his application for this particular type of handgun or of re- stricted firearm at this point in the Criminal Code. The letter is very clear that the applicant will have the fire- arms seized as soon as bill C68 receives Royal Assent. Mr Caron: Alan Rock repeatedly said that registration is not confiscation. Unfortunately, reality is there. Confis- cation is there. Mr Panagiotidid: Our local CPFO has made it very clear by us having to sign this letter prior to him proceeding with registration of our firearm. Mr Caron: The registration system will work only if there is compliance from the gun owners. This is not inviting compliance. Sen. Andreychuk: I am amazed that the government is instruc- ting people to abide by a law that has yet to pass the Par- liament of Canada. That seems to imply that it is going to pass in the form it has. I have to question what my role is in this committee if it is taken for granted that I have no role. I want that certainly on the record. While ignorance of the law is no excuse, it is becoming more and more difficult for citizens to know all the laws and intricacies. Ms Ross: The regulations appear once before Parliament and then they never have to appear again. The regulations made by OIC by Kim Campbell and Allan Rock were not placed be- fore Parliament. They simply bypassed that step. Sen. Andreychuk:You are not against regulation and restric- tions and responsible control of firearms but there seems to be some level of mistrust that the agenda is not shift- ing to control but banishment? Mr. Torino: The reason for this is that historically legis- lation concerning firearms has gone from restriction to prohibition to confiscation. In 1992, some 50,000 assault type firearms were required to be registered. Some 8,000 were registered. What happened to the difference? Canada Customs confirmed a minimum of 50,000 came into the country. Sen. Pearson: There are opportunities in the Canadian dem- ocracy to intervine in the process. I feel very uneasy when I hear people (earlier witnesses) accusing or speaking about Canada as a country that is losing its democratic principles. Ms Ross: There is a situation here which I think has pro- duced concern across this country at such a level that people are truly feeling great distrust and alienation towards their government. They do deal with some of our basic civil liberties and these things are the essence of democracy. Sen. pearson: There are many ways to deal with that, com- mittee on scrutiny of regulations, the House of Commons, the Senate, an election process. We have a record of polls showing a very large percentage of the population support- ing this legislation. I feel uncomfortable when people feel that somehow the whole system is at fault. Ms Iwama: When people say they want gun control, they actually mean "crime control". They do not know what strict controls we have in Canada on guns. (re:democracy) Why did the Liberal government punish some of the Liberal MPs when they voted with what their constit- uents wanted? This is what the people of Canada are afraid of. Mr Torino: Justice Minister Rock came to Quebec last fall for exactly one and one half hours of representation for and against bill C68 before the bill was presented to Par- liament. Mr Panagiotidis: We found out about Allan Rock going around the country three days before his closing.Our organization sent a letter to Ottawa asking why he had not consulted with the second most populous province in Canada. That is when he came to see us for one and one half hours. Now you tell me this is democracy working at its best. I want him (justice Minister) to publically state his defini- tion of gun control, because 98% of the population of this country has no idea what it is. I blame Ottawa for not pub- lishing the new regulations, because at this point 100% of our population are common criminals according to bill C68. Sen. Carstairs: That's ridiculous. Mr Panagiotidis: I don't think so. If you check in your closet, you may have something that will be considered a prohibited weapon according to the new regulations. Sen. Carstairs: The new regulations have not been printed yet. Mr Panagiotidis: But have already started to see the con- fiscations. This has already been implemented. It is as good as done. These hearings are basically just to satisfy us. Sen. Doyle: What do organizations like your own do when you get one of these great wads of proposed law? Mr Torino: The work involved in going through this requir- ed not only our own analysis but that of our legal council. There is a problem with interpretation across Canada, each registrar is forced to do the same thing we do. In Quebec, it is even more difficult because the translation may not exactly equate to the English. The average person cannot possibly go through this and understand where he can get into trouble. Chairman: There is no translation of laws in this country. All laws at the federal level are passed in French and in English. Neither are translations of each other. Sen. Adams: Do you have any record of criminals buying guns from you or guns that have been stolen? Mr Bateman: The OACA is careful to screen our members. If a member is convicted of an offence under current arms con- trol legislation he is expelled from the association. Sen. Adams: Collecting is like investing money. My concern is that if this bill is passed, those guns would be worthless. Mr Caron: 90% of my collection would become prohibited. I would not be able to sell them. Just with the introduc- tion of C68 I have some that have become prohibited by OIC. They have no value. ---------------------------------- --=====================_815846012==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" **************************************************************************** ********* Andre Sponselee, CD, SSM "Ponder the path of thy feet, and Site 485, C19, RR4 Courtenay let all thy ways be established" B.C., Canada, V9N 7J3 Proverbs 4:5 (604) 334-3996 E-mail: hunter@comox.island.net http://www.comox.island.net/~hunter **************************************************************************** ********* --=====================_815846012==_-- From owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Wed Nov 8 13:07:17 1995 From: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca To: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: BOUNCE cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: Approval required Content-Length: 8878 Status: RO X-Lines: 221 From: andre sponselee Highlights of senate hearings, Sep.21,pm Mr Jack Wilkinson, Canadian Federation of Agriculture: -Members believe no case has been made for the broad-base inclusive registration program , especially the registra- tion of rifles and shotguns. -We represent farmers who use their guns for predator control, particularly as livestock operators or honey bee keepers. -We do not have wide spread veterinary services and livestock owners need a tool to put a downed animal out of its misery. -There have been significant changes over the last number of years with regard to safety, the members feel it has gone far enough. -The requirement to have a possession certificate to a- quire ammunition is too far reaching. -The Justice Dept. numbers show that from 1974-1994 there has been a significant reduction in relationship to fire- arms. The numbers show that handguns have been a problem area and that there have already been very extensive changes in those areas. -We feel it would be a significant inconvenience and cost, and possibly unmanageable. -------------------------------------------- Mr Roger george, Ontario federation of Agriculture: -While we believe that 75-80% of the bill is very neces- sary, we believe absolutely adamantly that the national registration system is impractical, unfair, will not work and that the resources could be far better spent in other, more important aspects of bill C68. -Many farmers have stated that they will not register their long arms and by doing so will knowingly be commit- ting what will be a crime under the Criminal Code. -The vast majority of rural people believe that the regis- tration component is an act of folly. ----------------------------------------- Sen. Adams: Do you have any stats on how many people have been shot in rural areas? Allan Rock should take a poll in the rural areas rather than in downtown Toronto where someone is shot every day. You made a good point about ammunition. A criminal who is not allowed to buy ammu- nition can borrow it from someone else. We do that in the North. Is there anything in this bill about being responsible if someone is shot after you have lent ammu- nition? Mr Wilkinson: We do not think that ammunition in the rural Canada complex is a problem. There is the ability to track whom this product is sold to, however, why does it require the degree of regulation that is being proposed in this legislation. Convince us that step is required, because we just do not think itis. Sen. Adams: Anywhere up in the territory I can buy a whole box and no one will say anything. What am I going to do; go to war? We in the territory feel that this legislation is too strict, it contains too much regulation. Sen. Carstairs: I do not understand why registration is causing such a problem. I am in favour of the legislation but I do not understand why farmers have a problem with registering guns, when farmers already register so many other things. mr Wilkinson: I think itis a cumulation. No one believes the cost element for one minute. You can track FACs. When I got my first FAC there was a waiting period; Not much later, the fee for an FAC became substantially higher than it was initially; Later there was an 8-10 hour course required for which we had to pay a fee. People do not believe the government numbers with regard to cost. People do not believe that it will be anything but a full cost- recovery system in a very short time. Sen. Carstairs: A poll of 1000 Ontarians from all regions showed an overal 77% in favour of registration of all firearms. In Toronto 89% in favour; In southwest Ontario 71% in favour; In Eastern Ontario 71% in favour; In central Ontario 72% in favour; in northern Ontario 65% in favour. How can you explain a poll result like that. Mr George: The answers to that poll were based on emotion. The first, basic reaction would have it sound like a good idea if its going to reduce crime. Rural people want to get criminals off the street, they want to do something about smuggling. If you asked farmers specifically whether they think it's a good idea to register their shotguns, they will say no 95% of the time. Sen. Pearson: Statistics show a higher rate of domestic violence and injury in rural populations. It is not just a case of people being injured, but the presence in the house of a gun which is being used to threaten. How have you responded to the issue of domestic violence among rural families involving guns? Mr Wilkinson: With the upgrades to existing legislation in this bill there is a mechanism available to authorities to remove any type of firearm from any home. It does not need a broad registration process to deal with that. Since 1974, homicides involving firearms have been more than cut in half. We are not here to provide solutions to violence in rural Canada. The question we are here to adress is how the proposed registration aspect deals with the issue. We do not see an adequate linkage. Sen. Pearson: I would ask you to read the testimony of the police as to why they believe this legislation will help them. Mr Wilkinson: All police depts. are not of the view that a registration program is the appropriate way to deal with the problem. Sen. Pearson: But a great many are. Mr Wilkinson: Some have suggested that there are better ways to use limited resources to deal with the problem. Sen. Pearson: The chiefs of police and police officer's association have supported registration. Mr Wilkinson: If I were a police chief in Toronto, Van- couver or Montreal, I may very well believe that I re- quired certain tools that are not required in many other parts of the country. Sen. Pearson: In car driving we have reverse onus. You have to prove that you can drive before you're licenced. It has gone from a simple licencing system to a compli- cated and rather expensive one. Mr Wilkinson: I do not believe we have said that the in- dividual who will use the gun should not have a hunting licence. I do not believe we have said that if someone was going to purchase a gun that they are not willing to follow the rules for taking a course and having an FAC. I think what we are saying is something different from that. We spoke out against the requirements around pur- chasing of ammunition and registration of firearms. Mr George: People are saying, "Why do we have to go through all this when some of those things will happen regardless". because in an emotional situation, just as in a criminal situation, what will registration do. Sen. Pearson: Many of us believe that it is a consciousness raising exercise that one must be responsible for things. Mr George:Then, Let us spend the money on education and safety with regard to firearms. Sen. Andreychuk: In seminars and workshops 10-15 years ago, I learned why rural women felt most vunerable in domestic violence situations was the fact that they were isolated on farms without support systems that urban women would have. What is your organization doing to address this very serious problem? Mr George: The role of farm women in agricultural asso- ciations and farm business has moved an awful long way in the past 10 years. Women are well represented in our orga- nizations and have special positions. We support the tre- mendous work that many of the farm women's groups do. We rely on groups such as the Women's Institutes and Ontario Farm Woman's Network, and fund various courses and seminars. Ms Sally Rutherford, CFA: The isolation problems from 15 years ago are different now. We have had success in having this government actually admit that rural Canada exists and that it may have problems that are different from urban problems.There are a growing number of shelters and those kinds of services inrural areas certainly did not exist 15 years ago. Sen. Andreychuk: Has the decline in hospital beds in rural areas and the support services had an impact? Ms Rutherford: The massive bed closures have been fairly recent. We know there are serious concerns about the lack of medical services in rural areas for a whole host of reasons. ------------------------------------ --=====================_815886428==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" **************************************************************************** ********* Andre Sponselee, CD, SSM "Ponder the path of thy feet, and Site 485, C19, RR4 Courtenay let all thy ways be established" B.C., Canada, V9N 7J3 Proverbs 4:5 (604) 334-3996 E-mail: hunter@comox.island.net http://www.comox.island.net/~hunter **************************************************************************** ********* --=====================_815886428==_--