From owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mon Nov 6 01:45:43 1995 From: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca To: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: BOUNCE cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: Approval required Content-Length: 9738 Status: RO X-Lines: 243 From: andre sponselee Senate hearings on C68, Sep 20, pm Mr Arn Snyder, Canadian Criminal Justice Association: -The CCJA strongly endorses the creation of a central registry to record all firearms and firearm licence holders. -We are intrigued by the idea of using gift certificates as an inducement to turn in firearms currently in circu- lation. -A national well publicised amnesty program with respect to newly prohibited weapons would encourage people to dispose of these and other firearms. ------------------------------------------------- Mr Matthew Yeager, CCJA: -Until recently, a great number of households having firearms had no member that had received instruction in safe care andhandling. -The cost of firearms include not only the firearms and purchasing them but also the cost of injuries, fatalities and other unintentional consequences. -It may be better that we gun proof society than waiting to deal with the results of the injuries, the suicides and the homocides after the fact. (There were several pages of various statistics to sup- port his position, much of it is has been mentioned else- where and therefore I have omitted it from the highlights) ------------------------------------------------------- Mr Graham Reddoch, John Howard Society of Manitoba: -Many (clients) have impoverished, disadvantaged back- grounds, are illiterate and unable to express themselves well, often frustrated and often do not think through their actions or consider the consequences. The concept of deterrence, therefore is often meaningless. -If they,ve spent a long time in prison, their heroes may be other prisoners who have committed more serious, sensational crimes. -A hero is someone in aa gang who exhibits power and control over others. And if the gang leader has access to firearms, then he's seen as all the more powerful. With an easily available gun, a fist fight at a drinking party can escalate into murder, a break and enter becomes robbery or murder, a domestic dispute has more lethal consequences. -The availability of firearms in Canada is a very small issue in a much larger crime prevention strategy, but at the same time, it is a very important issue which can partially be addressed through passage of this bill. ------------------------------------------------------- Sen. Andreychuk; Where did these statistics come from, whose research? It seems to have been a compilation and I have no idea whose research it is and whose statistics they are. Most of the other research has come with iden- tified sources. I think in fairness and in continuity we should know who the sources are. Mr. Yeager: It is the work of Arthur Kellerman and Dr. Sloan in the United States. Sen. Ghitter: Your association (Criminal Justice Associ- ation) has had a long history of opposing mandatory sen- tencing. In this legislation, in half a dozen sections there is mandatory sentencing. The number of years that makes possession of a gun knowingly an indictable offence has a mandatory sentence even more serious than rape, mur- der and manslaughter. Mr. Yeager: We accept this bill as a very fine compromise. Obviously we would be concerned about this issue but quite candidly, we need to get the system in operation right now ......There is a mandatory minimum sentencing provision in the current criminal code, so this is not anything partic- ularly new. Sen. Ghitter: Well, I think it is new in legislation of this nature for the failure to do an act, namely my fail- ure to register my gun, ultimately, that is creating this mandatory sentence. Mr. Yeager: I do not believe that the new law provides a mandatory minimum for failure to register. Sen. DeWare: Yes it does. Sen. Ghitter: At sections 91 and 92 you will find that there and then you relate back to the firearms legisla- tion, section 112, and you'll find that. Chairman: It is in section 92, is it not? Sen. Ghitter That is quite right. Mr. Yeager: Is this the amended version? Sen. Ghitter: No, the final version. Mr. Yeager: But it is a second offence. Sen. Ghitter: So? I do not mean any disrespect, but yes that is true. Mr. Yeager: If an individual is flaunting the law after the second offence then, obviously, we have always taken the position that there should be some response. Sen. Ghitter: But you have always taken the position that it is very important to have flexibility in our court system. In this circumstance, we are saying as a Parlia- ment, "second offence. Go to jail." That has been con- trary to the views of your association for 75 years. Mr. Yeager: The majority of the MPs knowingly passed and approved this bill representing the members of the public of Canada. Sen. Ghitter: With respect, I know what the opinion of the Parliament of Canada in the other place is. I do not expect you to come here just to repeat what the other side has said. I want your honest views. Sen. Andreychuk: On the second offence, you were saying that you take a different position. I thought the John Howard Society had been vocal that in groups like the Aborigional groups who often do not speek the language and do not understand the process, they may find themselves a second and third time before the courts before they truly understand what's goingg on. You seem to have said that if it is a second offence, then fine. Mr Reddoch: This section deals with failure to comply with registration as opposed to not understanding. Sen. Andreychuk: There are technical things. The term "wilfully" could be misinterpreted. They could reply "Yes, Idid not do that. I did not intend to". Sen. Stanbury: Well, that is not willful. Sen. Andreychuk: In court we often argue as to what "wil- lful" means. What is seen in one person or one culture may not be wilful disregard in another. Mr. Reddoch: I guess our position on this is that it is a compromise that we are prepared to live with at this point in time. (Ommitted are several pages on various forms and statis- tics of homocides other than by firearms ) Sen. Doyle: You said that there was always discretionery interpretation of mandatory things. For a layman, this seems to be a lot to expect of law in this country, namely that your chance would hinge on people using their dis- cretion with something that was mandatory. Mr. Yeager: The provinces apparently like that system of having discretion. We do not think it will be a big prob- lem.......The basic fact we are looking at is that we need to see this bill put into effect and implemented and "oper- ationalized." The legislation with respect to the regis- tration we endorse wholeheartedly. Sen. Carstairs: With regard to the 50% of guns that have not been fired in at least one year, is there any data to indicate for what reason they're kept. (e.g. collectors, inherited, etc.) Mr. Yeager: We have no ability to track long guns or shot- guns in Canada. A registry would be beneficial and kick start preventative efforts, and we could get into a dis- cussion about perhaps offering amnesties, buy back cam- paigns, gift certificates for toys, to respond to the issue, namely, "If you have not used your gun in five years, why do you need a gun in the first place?" Sen. Adams: We live in a big country and we have differ- ent cultures. We do not like living in Toront, Montreal, Winnipeg or somewhere else. When we buy a gun, we figure it is ours. But now the government is telling us that we will be criminals and we have done something wrong. The minister is saying he has 70% support in Canada to make this gun law, but that 70% may be only from Toronto. If they did a survey in the territories pherhaps 100% would say no. Why make laws for people based on surveys taken in the south and not take into account the people living in the north who are most affected by these laws. You tell me that Canadians as a whole are looking foreward to this legislation. Well, you are talking to different people than I am talking to. I would like to take you to my office and show you the mail we receive. The majority of it is against this bill and it is not only from gun owners. Legislation is already in place to control safe storage of guns under Bill C17. Legislation is already in place to control importing and exporting of firearms. Legisla- tion is already in place to control explosives and ammu- nition. Legislation is already in place to control break- ing the law if you use a firearm. Why are these pieces of legislation not being enforced? Concerns have been raised about computer hackers who will attempt to get into the system to find gun collectors whose guns they may be able to steal. Will registration of guns eliminate guns in the homes? It will not. Will registra- tion of guns eliminate loaded guns in the homes? It will not. What will eliminate these problems is education. I have serious concerns about the people in the North. How do they store a gun in the house that is probably 60 degrees and then take it outside and try to use it when it is minus 50? It will not work. They are tel- ling the minister that they cannot store a gun in one place and expect it to work 20 minutes later in a colder temperature. A lot of people in the north have a record. You cannot register a firearm if you have a record. They use their guns to hunt for food, protection, sport. They have a serious problem that definitely must be dealt with. (The session ended with more stats and comments regarding OIC provisions) ---------------------------------------------------------- Andre Sponselee, CD, SSM From owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mon Nov 6 15:00:16 1995 From: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca To: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: BOUNCE cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: Approval required Content-Length: 6948 Status: RO X-Lines: 170 From: andre sponselee Highlights of Senate hearings on bill C68, Sep. 20, pm Professor Rosemary Gartner, University of Toronto: -In nations where guns are more easily available, homicide rates are higher. -It is possible that the availability of guns in a society is also a reflection of a culture's tolerance for legiti- mate violence. (and by extention for illigitimate violence) -Such legislation (C68) reinforces and teaches the message that an armed populace is a potentially dangerous populace. -If firearms legislation made guns less readily available, especially to those inclined toward crime and violence, we could reduce the lethality of violent crime. It does not indicate that reducing gun availability would neces- sarily lower the overall volume of violent crime in Canada, however. -The presence of firearms has an especially strong affect in domestic disputes. -I have never heard nor have I ever read of an abused woman living with her abuser who felt safer knowing that there was a gun in her home that she might be able to use to pro- tect herself. -Although I support it (the bill) I think it is imperative that we expand the dialogue around public safety and secu- rity and be ready to expend resources on measures beyond gun control. -It would also be a mistake to pass this bill without due attention to its evaluation. ----------------------------------------- Professor Tom Gabor, University of Ottawa: -I would like to say up front that I have never belonged to any organization, either pro or anti firearm, nor have I ever been a member of the communist party. Sen. Ghitter: But do you own a gun? Mr Gabor: (ignored the question from Sen. Ghitter) -Published a report titled "The impact of the availability of firearms on violent crimes, suicide and accidental death. -Levels of firearm ownership influence a country's homocide rate...this means they will be used more frequently in as- saults, robberies and...leads to more fatal outcomes. -Many homicides stem from spontaneous altercations. -Many people who kill and disable with firearms do not have long criminal records. -The pool of people capable of committing violent acts is much larger than has been suggested by gun lobbyists. -Many Canadians are potential killers given lethal weapons and the right circumstances. -The presence of a weapon can serve as a cue that will bring about a more aggressive response. -One of the best ways of reducing homicides, suicides and accidents is by reducing the number of firearms in circu- lation--more specifically, the percentage of Canadian house- holds with firearms. -The message of a registration system is that firearms are hazardous products and like other hazardous products, their ownership, transportation and storage should be regulated and registered. Sen. Andreychuk: If you take rural and northern Canada, guns are used daily. People in those areas go out hunting, shooting, trapping. Does that availability in use--in- crease crime? Mr Gabor: We like to distinguish between availability, which refers to the volume of firearms in society. Sen. Andreychuk: We are talking volume, I am talking use. Mr Gabor: You are talking about accessibility to people. Accessibility and increased hunting does lead to increased accidents. The greater the accessibility of the firearm, the greater the likelihood of misuse, often in terms of accidents. Sen. Andreychuk: If you have a gun in the house, it is in the closet and you do not confront it often. You may at some point grab the gun, shoot and be very sorry for it at the next moment. That is what you are saying. Mr Gabor: Yes. Mr. Andreychuk: There is not a history of criminality. How do you weigh that against someone who constantly has a gun in their hand and is up North and on the road? Is there a correlation of the number of times that the gun is actually in someone's hand? Mr Gabor:Homicides, suicides,and accidents are fairly rare events...the greater the availability, the more likely these rare events will occur. Ms Gartner: (regarding perception) The violent crime rate has not changed over the last six or seven years, but public perceptions that violent crime has increased are strong, and public intolerance of violent crime is very strong.... driven by violence that has taken new forms in the media and in other leisure activities. Sen. Andrychuk: Children today are watching television and seeing violence at an early age, when perhaps the 19 year-old did not have that experience. I did not because there was no television. Mr Gabor: Studies suggest both a desensitizing effect, an imitation effect and a disinhibiting effect on young people who view violence for a short period of time. One would expect that in young people who by the age of 10 or 12 may have viewed 10,000 homicides on television alone, there would be quite a cumulative effect. In the inner city schools now in Canada there tends to be a glorification of weapons. I think the presence and the accessibility of firearms contributes to that culture of violence and toleration of violence. Sen. Carstairs: Could we be creating a more sensitized community through this legislation in the same way of the desensitizing effect on violence? Ms Gartner: That is an extension of the point I was trying to make. Sen. Ghitter: (regarding the North), we would also need stats as to the rates of alcoholism, poverty, deprivation and other things that drive people to consider suicide, rather than just look at the bare facts of the stats on ownership. Sen. Cools: Of the spousal homicides, what percentage of them were in the North and were among native peoples. Ms Gartner: Somewhere between 8 and 9 times the rate of non-aborigionals. Mr Gabor: In Canada, again, you are trying to link avail- ability among different groups with homicide and suicide rates. Police officers, because the possess firearms, are far more likely to kill themselves with firearms than members of the civilian population. There again is an indication of that correlation. Sen. Cools: Doctors and psychiatrists use firearms too. Sen. Doyle: What worries me is people coming into recrea- tion centers, into wherever youngsters and adolescents gather, operating smuggled Saterday Night Specials, cheap guns that even kids can afford on the kind of allowances they get now. Mr Gabor: Multiple factors are responsible...childhood, family, societal changes, exposure to media content with violence are all important, but firearms are one ingredient. Where you have a high level of availablility, you will have far more firearm-related deaths. Sen. DeWare: Why do we not enforce Bill C17? Bill C17 contains a gun safety provision. Mr. Gabor: That would be important but having a regis- tration system drives that point home even more. Andre Sponselee, CD, SSM