From: andre sponselee Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 15:21:00 -0600 Subject: Senate hearings on C-68, Sep. 19, pm Highlights of Senate hearings, Sep. 19, pm Dr. Jules Sobrien, Responsible Firearms Owners Of Ontario: stated that there was an, "implication that lawful owners must be dealt with severely since firearms are a major source of evil". That, "national groups such as the CMA and association of Game Wardens have come out against it", and that the ban of lead shot was, "the Liberal government's knock-out blow to ban all sport shooting". He further stated that the law presently provides for confiscation from mentally ill individuals, and that in many cases, "the culprit was know to police as unstable; and it was only the failure of the police to do their duty that allowed that individual to retain possession of firearms". "As a country GP for 32 years", he added, "let me assure you that there are cries for help and there are suicides. Do not confuse the two. When someone wants to leave, he smiles at you and kills himself five minutes later. Banning guns will not prevent the suicides of the 29% of the people who use them". He added that most pro-gun criminologists started out against guns until they studied the issue and that there has never been a pro-gun criminologist who became anti-gun when he learned the truth about guns and crime. Criminals have no respect for their victims since danger to his own life from the legal system has been eliminated. The Minister's $85 million coiuld better be spent revamping the Young Offenders Act which causes at least 50% of present violent crime. He called for elimination of registration of long guns, the elimination of Section 110, the elimination of prohibitions on all firearms prohibited by Bill C-68 and an explicit definition of what constitutes safe storage. Sen. Carstairs asked what he meant by, "most Canadians think that the way to prevent war was to kneel down and press your forehead to the ground". Mr. Sobrian answered, "In the past, what we have done is rolled over. Just comply and go ahead with whatever will happen next. We are not rolling over any more. That is finished". Sen. Carstairs: "Do you consider this bill war?" Mr. Sobrian: "It is the next thing to it". "To others it would appear that our Canadian leaders subscribe to the ideals of the new world order and are preparing to hand our government over to the United Nations after disarming the country". Sen. Adams: "I think the government already has enough regulations in Bill C-17. Why make more laws now? We have many other problems in Canada, the least of which is gun control". - ------------------------------------------------ Mr. George Duffy, Responsible Firearms Organization of Alberta: "Our organization believes in the right to own firearms for the purposes of collection, sport and recreation. While this is not entrenched in the Constitution, it follows from the right of all free persons to live their lives as they see fit, provided only that they do no harm to others". He stated that, "registration of firearms is unacceptable", and "we want the bill killed". Other unacceptable parts related to confiscation without compensation and OICs. He followed up with a belief that, "the government is practicing cultural genocide, and it is becoming socially unacceptable to own firearms in Canada". >From an economic view, "non-resident hunters add $23 million a year to the Alberta economy". - --------------------------------------------- Mr. Larry Tardiff, Council for Responsible Firearms Ownership, Manitoba: indicated that Sen. St.Germain had written him saying, "the country with the lowest rate of violent crime, Switzerland, does not in fact have a gun registry". "Long guns require no special proceedures, handguns need a purchase certificate by a cantono (provincial authority) but the firearm is not registered, but the purchaser obtains a licence to possess". He asked why this government wanted to pass legislation to obtain the right to search homes of law-abiding Canadians without a warrant, and why this government demanded that otherwise law-abiding citizens be branded as criminals and dealt with more harshly than murderers for simply not complying with the filling out of forms. He called for stiffer sentences for criminals who commit a crime with any weapon and stated that the "funding" part of the Young Offenders Act to deal with problem youth and dysfunctional families was never provided. "$85 million could be the operating budget for a crisis intervention youth center in the inner city slums of every city in Canada, probably for 2-3 years". "Take care of the problem at its source. If we have the money, let's put it where it will do some good instead of pouring it down the drain into other federal bureaucracy". Sen. Cools asked if life insurance premiums for gun owners were higher than for non-gun owners. Mr. Tardiff answered that as a club member, he could get $1 million coverage for $2.00 and that gun ownership had no bearing on his house insurance. Mr. Duffy added that for $4.50 he received $2 million public liability insurance. Sen. Cools: "Of those members, how many have ever been convicted of shooting their wives?" Mr. Duffy: "None, as a matter of fact, we can find no one within our membership who has been convicted of any type of violence or violent crime". Sen. Stratton: "Three things that concern me, making criminals out of ordinary citizens for lack of registration; two, search and seizure.....my third concern is that, ultimately, with registration, you will get confiscation". Mr. Duffy: "Confiscation started in Canada when we came up with three classes of firearms, such as unrestricted, restricted and prohibited". In regards to registration he quoted the Justice Minister as saying you'll be able to go down to the local liquor store or hardware store and punch a little card. He continued by saying that he'd. "just come from speaking with the RCMP and he said that would be impossible. Firearms must be taken to a police agency and checked by a police agency". "There are seven characteristics which identify a firearm, not just the serial number.....If firearms will first be registered at a cost of $10 per gun, where will the other $90 come from? Sen. Andreychuk: "I am concerned about young people who are getting their attitudes about guns and what can and cannot be done with them from television. They are negative images. How do we address that?" Mr. Tardiff: "Education is the key. Legislation has never been the key. I have never seen a piece of legislation yet that was ever successful in legislating common sense and decency". - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Andre Sponselee, CD, SSM - ----- End Included Message ----- ------------------------------ From: andre sponselee Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 15:26:45 -0600 Subject: senate hearings on bill C68, Sep. 20, am Highlights of senate hearings on bill C68, Sep. 20, am Ms Arlene A. Chapman, Alta. Council of Women's Shelters: -Mandatory registration of all firearms is linked to the safety of women. -Ban military assault type weapons whose only design is the destruction of human life. -Gun control is not about guns; it's about violence. -With facing a mandatory minimum sentence, abusive men will less likely to violate prohibition orders. -Bill C68 will allow for the confiscation of weapons. -Gun control is a woman's safety issue; it will save lives. - -------------------------------------------- Ms Jill Hightower, BC Institute on Family Violence: -Most men who are violent towards their partners are not recognized as criminals by their neighbours. They are generally known as law-abiding citizens. -Firearms were used to murder 42% of the wives and 27% of the husbands. -Suicide attempts with guns have dramatically lower survival rates. -Creation of a registration system will help police know about the presence of a firearm. -Guns are used for a variety of purposes and one of these purposes is to threaten biolence. -Bill C-68 represents a reasonable balance between the interests of gun owners and public safety. - ------------------------------------------ Ms Virginia M. Fisher, Provincial Association of Transition Houses Saskatchewan: -As I understand it, guns in the street are criminal guns and guns in the home are law-abiding guns. -Legally owned guns are the weapon of choice: guns in the home, unrestricted guns, rifles and shotguns, guns owned by target shooters and hunters and farmers, guns owned by men everyone else thinks are law-abiding citizens, guns women live in with in terror every day like hostages. -It is important that you get the message that this is about so-called responsibly owned guns. -Gun owners have co-opted victim status with protestations of being targeted by a government out of control. They stand as wounded, honest citizens, threatened by uncompromising fear mongerers. -Gun control is not about guns, it is about violence. -Gun owners present themselves as the only experts on guns and gun control. However, since gun control is about violence and not guns, it is women who are the experts. -While women live with guns over and under their beds and pointed at their heads, men complain about having to fill out a form. - -------------------------------------------------- Sen. Doyle: Do you think there has been a broad enough understanding of the various aspects ( the strength and weaknesses) of this bill to make it a respository of hope. Ms Chapman: I do not think that the average Albertan has a very good grasp of the benefits of this bill. Ms. Fisher: I think that is the case in Saskatchewan, certainly with our Minister of Justice every 2 or 3 days telling Saskatchewan people that the act is useless. Ms Hightower: In BC the reporting in the press and in the media has been of the minority of people who do own guns. Sen. Ghitter: I say at the outset that this legislation does not ban guns. If it did, I would probably frankly have no trouble voting for it, because guns are something that have never played a part in my life, nor will they. We as Parliamentarians must look in terms of those policy decisions (the most efficient way of allocating public monies), particularly where billions of dollars are being removed from those areas in which funding could be used. If you were given $100million and asked to prioritize it, where would you spend it? We talked in terms of education, women's poverty, prohibition orders, zero tolerance, community programs, YWC programs, a whole list of allocation of resources that would be usefully spent in the community. No one ever came to us and suggested we should be lobbying for gun registration as a priority. If you were to put a list together of priorities, where would gun registration be on that list. Ms Fisher: I do not think that is a question that should be asked, but it will be coming from the gun owners. Sen Ghitter: I disagree with you on that point. I think there will be considerable public monies that will go into this, if not federal, out of provincial monies, in order to implement and do the gun registration aspect of it. Many of us around this table feel that there will be onsiderable public monies. Ms Chapman: There is no further designations of public monies for any areas of prevention or crisis intervention. There is a loosening of the purse strings for registration. Sen. Ghitter: Would you help me understand the linkage between registration and how those statistics will then be reduced (deaths, injuries, violence etc.) Ms Fisher: Safe storage will start to be the rule instead of the exception by 2001, certainly by 2003. Sen. Ghitter: Safe storage is the law today. Ms. Fisher: People are not accountable. I do not want to tell the gun lobyists this, but I think having to be licenced to buy ammunition will have a significant effect. These abusers will have to be registered to get their ammunition, which means they're in the computer. It helps the police. Sen. Adams: I do not support Bill C68 because it criminalizes innocent people. You mentioned guns being pointed at the wife. If I buy a gun and register it, I still cannot point it at my wife. Ms Chapman: Police will be able to confiscate the weapon. Sen. Adams: They will already be shot by the time you get there. The hunters and gun clubs said that out of 5000 registered clubs and gun owners and hunters, not one member had been shot, nor had their wives. Ms Fisher: I do not think he said none of them have shot their wives. Sen. Adams: He really did. Give us credit; if it had not been clear, we would have investigated further. He really did. Ms Chapman: (Bill C68) allows for confiscation of weapons and restricts the sale of ammunition. We see that as very beneficial. Se. DeWare: Will registration eliminate guns in the home? We think not. Will registration eliminate loaded guns in the home? We think not. The only thing that will eliminate loaded guns in the home is education and the application of Bill C17. Why is it not being enforced. I am also concerned about the amount of money. We could use the money for longer sentences for violent offenders, more care for women, protection against violence for women, programs on safety and safe guns. Only 0.05% of all guns in Canada are used in violence or in homocide or for suicide. That means 99.95% of all guns in Canada are not used in that way. The registration will affect the 99.95% of gun owners who do not use their guns for violence of any kind. Could the amount of money this will cost be channelled in another direction? Ms Chapman: I do not think we have anything before us right now that would allow us to channel money in another direction. What we have right now is Bill C68. Ms. Fisher: All the people applying for their license will be require to go through the screening process Sen. DeWare: No they do not. They fill out a card. Sen. Stratton: I will not have to go through that process. I have had the rifle for 40 years. Ms. Chapman: Do you not have to renew in 5 years? Sen. DeWare: Only if I purchase another one. They send you a copy in the mail. You fill it out and send it back with money. It is the same as renewing your car license. Sen. Stratton: If I have an existing gun, I do not have to go through that process. Sen. Ghitter: There will be a police check on those cards, and that is the only check that is made. Five years later, on renewal, there is a determination of whether there has been a criminal record. That is it. Sen. Cools: Moving right along to the newly emerging area of lesbian violence, do you have any data on domestic violence within relationships by women against women, especially using guns? There is an emerging body of research. It is probably going to be the frontal edge of dispelling, once and for all, the so-called notion of patriarchy. The research that is emerging is showing that lesbian relationships have a great propensity for violence. Ms Chapman: We are talking about domestic violence regardless of the genders of the people in the home. Sen. Lewis: We're dealing with gun control are we not? Sen. Cools: But guns are supposed to be a symbol of male violence. Ms Hightower: All violence stems from issues of power and control. Sen. Andreychuk: My preocupation is to be successful in community development...preventative care. We pay too much attention to legislation as a cure-all for social ills. Look at the YOA, we thought we would get the resources to prevent crimes. I fear that you're putting too much stock in the belief that this bill will provide a well functioning act, a registry that can do everything it says and that it will be self financing. Where in the government services do we have a registration system, a computer system that works as it is supposed to; second, one that is self-financing. So much power to regulate gun registration will be in the hands of a Governor in Council on what is banned or not banned, what is restricted or not restricted. Power is moving away from Parliament and the courts into the hands of bureaucratic advisors to a Governor in Council process. Ms Fisher: We do not make laws based on whether some people will refuse to obey them. We are asking them to register. We are asking them to fill out a form. Sen. Andreychuk: There has to be a measure of support from the public in order for legislation to work. Ms Fisher: But in Canada a majority of people want this. Sen. Stratton: Not in my province. Sen. Adams: Not in mine either. Sen Andryechuk: Although I do not want guns in the community, I have been persuaded by some people that there is a responsible use. - ----------------------------------------------------- Andre Sponselee, CD, SSM - ----- End Included Message -----