From: andre sponselee Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 14:42:54 -0600 Subject: Senate hearings, Sept.19, am Highlights of Senate hearings on C-68, Sept.19, am Dr. Brian L. Mishara, Past President, Canadian Association for Suicide Prevention: gave statistics of the number of suicides in Canada and a breakdown of methods used. He stated that firearms were generally used "impulsively and without careful premeditation". Anything that would decrease immediate access to firearms would result in a decreased risk of suicide. He also stated that, "a determined suicidal person may seek alternative methods when the method of choice is unavailable", and mentioned other forms used in various countries. Stated that, "during the 8 years after the introduction of Bill C-51, the total suicide rate and firearm suicide rate showed a decreasing trend", and that, "in no province did the suicide rates increase after passage of Bill C-51. "If Bill C-68 results in having fewer Canadian homes with firearms available, lives will be saved". He also tried to make a connection between hunting licences and suicides, "Our records show that in the Quebec region the firearm-related suicide rates increase as the number of hunting certificates increase. In regions in which few hunting certificates have been issued, the suicide rate is lower than it is in other regions of the province. Therefore, what we know to investigate is whether a correlation exists between the firearms or related suicide rate and the overall suicide rate". Sen. Cools: asked for a breakdown in methods other than from firearms, and in what percentages, and then asked of the firearms used, what percentage were illegal firearms. Mr. Mishara replied that there was no data on illegal guns but that 30-40% of the firearms used were not owned by the person using them. Sen. Cools then asked for a profile of the men who committed suicide, such as were they professionals, did they belong to a group who have terminal diseases, were they involved in difficult divorce and custody or access battles? Mr. Mishara replied that,"there is no strereo-typical profile of the male Canadian suicidal person who uses a firearm". Another important factor was that, "50% of the people who die by suicide have been consuming alcoholic beverages at the time of death". Sen. Ghitter: asked for an explanation of statistics, specifically in Northern Quebec. Mr. Simon explained that in Northern Quebec the are a lot of Indians and they do not have hunting certificates but do have a lot of firearms. Sen. Ghitter disputed the credibility of the data because of those factors. Mr. Simon disagreed and stated that if they had certificates the rates would fall in line. "The more hunting certificates you have, the higher the suicide rate". Sen. Ghitter moved on to economics and asked, "I wonder about your priorities. If you have $10 to spend, where would you prefer to spend it?" Mr. Mishara replied, "I have a very hard time putting a price on the life of a Canadian. We believe that there will be hundreds of lives saved per year". Sen. Ghitter replied, "I only add that probably the other recommendations that are there, if implemented in your brief, would also save lives. Would you agree?" "It is quite possible" stated Mr. Mishara. Senator Adams, "Where I come from people who want to commit suicide have a gun at home, but most of them hang themselves. How can you answer that?" Mr. Mishara: " guns are still the number one method among native people, though hanging is second" "Gun control is obviously part of the solution". Sen. Carstairs asked for data on locked gun cabinets preventing suicides, and Se. Lewis added, "if a firearm is locked up and a person, on the spur of the moment, decides to commit suicide, goes to the cupboard and cannot get in you would not have a record of that. No one would know". Mr. Mishara: No Sen. Lewis: So that you would not have any figures on that, really. **************************************************************************** Andre Sponselee, CD, SSM "Ponder the path of thy feet, and Site 485, C19, RR4 Courtenay let all thy ways be established" B.C., Canada, V9N 7J3 Proverbs 4:5 (604) 334-3996 E-mail: hunter@comox.island.net http://www.comox.island.net/~hunter **************************************************************************** - ----- End Included Message ----- ------------------------------ From: andre sponselee Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 14:47:43 -0600 Subject: Senate hearings on Bill C-68, Sept. 19, am Highlights of the Senate hearing on Bill C-68, Sept. 19, am Professor Ross Hastings, National Crime Prevention Council: " The position of the NCPC is that we must look at Bill C-68 in the broader contect of its contribution to individual and community safety. It is not a question of whether or not it will increase or decrease crime rates. What we would like to know is will there be fewer victims of violence... and will this contribute in some way to the sense of safety and security in our communities. We view Bill C-68 as a necessary component of an integrated strategy. We cannot imagine going much further without this legislation". He then pointed out that violence is determined by "motivation", "ability" and "conscience". Reducing any of those elements will reduce violence. His premise was that if legislation was expensive or annoying enough on gun owners, their conscience would cause them to turn in their guns. To avoid having huge numbers of people carrying guns all over the place to turn them in, he suggested that "This might require literally having police to go to homes on call or other kinds of arrangements" He was also apparently unaware of the Canadian Firearms Safety Course, as he called for a "national training program delivered and developed by the federal government". In regards to the category of opportunity, "registration will do an awful lot to make people accountable for the storage and use of their weapons", and "we would like insurance companies to get more aggresively involved in requiring registration before they insure weapons". In regards to sentencing, he raised the issue that adult offenders are undermining the act by recruiting youth offenders to do the dirty work and hoped that the use of weapons would be considered at the young offenders level. Some comments from Sen. Andreychuk noted that their booklet "policy recommendations on firearms control" stated the registration system may have relatively limited impact on the prevention of criminal activity or victimization, and consequences of improper implementation could lead to a lack of compliance and increase in criminal activity, and that there could not be an aggresive approach of monitoring by the police because of lack of resources. Mr. Hastings replied that he did not see cost factor as being an issue, had no reason to expect any difficulty asking citizens to get an FAC, had no reason to believe investigate costs were an insurmountable problem,and in the short term did not think there would be a dramatic effect on criminal activity. He felt that "in spite of the space that the anti-control, anti-registration people have taken up, there is overwhelming support for the legislation". Sen. Carstairs wanted to know where the funding was supposed to come from. Mr. Hastings answered from provincial and federal government. In answer to a question from Sen. Carstairs, regarding violence and abuse, he stated that "it requires us, at leats at some level, to say that people are potentially guilty because they possess certain kinds of preindicators to violence" In answer to a question from Sen. Ghitter as to the makeup of the NCPC, Mr. Hastings replied that they "operate on a budget of $400,000 a year, which comes out of the budget of the Department of Justice". Staff members came from the offices of the Solicitor General, RCMP, Correctional Services Canada, health and Welfare", and became operational in July last year. Some interaction regarding various registration systems in various countries followed as well as validity of projected results. Sen. Doyle asked how people who had "forgotten" guns in their closets would be treated. Mr. Hastings replied that "individuals who honestly forget or who stumble upon something will be dealt with as individuals who are willing to co-operate." Sen. Gauthier asked if he believed the $85 million dollar estimate and that none of the costs would be taken out of provincial, municipal or police budgets. Mr. Hastings replied that he believed about 80% of it, to which Sen. Gauthier asked him to explain which 80 percent he was talking about. In regards to applying the new legislation Mr. Hastings stated, "the legislation asks the police departments to do some new work. There is no indication that they have extra time. So that someone will either have to tell them what old work they do not have to do anymore, or pay for the new work". Andre Sponselee, CD, SSM - ----- End Included Message ----- ------------------------------ From: andre sponselee Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 14:56:22 -0600 Subject: Senate hearings on Bill C-68, Sep. 19, pm Highlights of Senate hearings on Bill C-68, Sep. 19, pm Mr. Rick Morgan, National Coalition of provincial and Territorial Wildlife Federations: Opened by informing the senators that he had about 150 municipal resolutions from Ontario and over 200 resolutions from Saskatchewan condemning Bill C-68. He noted that several provinces including Ontario, and both territories opposed the bill. He quoted the Auditor General's report and stated that the, "House really went beyond its elected mandate in including registration and other things in this bill". Sen. DeBane asked what the rationale was for the argument, "that it is not in the interests of the state to know who has such deadly weapon, and why should deadly weapons not be registered". "What is wrong with the state registering the deadliest weapons that exist? What is wrong with that?" Mr. Morgan explained that registration will not affect criminals, "criminals will not register their firearms" "Houses and cars are not registered because they are used for criminal purposes, they are registered for taxation purposes, so the government can make money". Sen. DeBane: "You have a very distorted view of the reason for the registration of your car or your home. You should meet with your lawyer, and he will explain ... that registration is not primarily for the confiscation through taxation, but to protect your rights". Mr. Morgan: "I understand that, but you have also put words in my mouth. I think it is important that one view this legislation for its intended purpose". "We believe that registration will make Canada less safe". With that he indicated the problems with computer hackers accessing secure information. Sen. Carstairs asked about the cost of organization dues which were noted to be $35/yr and asked why, if it cost $35 to join the organization, it is felt that $12/yr to own firearms was expensive. Mr. Morgan stated that people were joining the organization for all kinds of reasons, including advising the government and that there are many Canadians who cannot afford to belong to organizations. Sen. Carstairs tried to argue that if computer hackers could get into the system, only cars with the, "most recent models with the most up-to-date equipment would be stolen". Mr. Morgan replied that, "you see cars wherever you go. They are easy to steal. You do not need a computer system to know where the cars are". Sen. Doyle asked what about Bill C-17 was working, what was good and what was not good. Mr. Morgan replied that safe storage requirements were supported and working but the high cost of FACs were reducing the number of people buying firearms for hunting and target shooting. Sen. Ghitter asked whether the major cause of concern was more government control, bureaucracy, spending more money, intrusion of privacy, government telling them how to run their lives were all examples the senator had heard before. He stated that, "You must be able to answer that question so that we can understand it, because if you cannot answer the question, then this legislation is supportable". Mr. Morgan: "The reasons vary from individual to individual, but they are deeply felt". Sen. Ghitter: "I wish to get a sense of why its deeper than that. Mr. Gauthier pointed out that it gave the government the right to search a persons medical record and gets into privacy issues and puts a lot of power in one man's hand. It is also felt that this is a ,"job creating program. All it is is that some people in Ottawa decided their jobs are going to be lost, and they have to find a way to keep working. This is one way to do it". The Chairman: In regards to privacy mentioned a quotation from Pierre Trudeau that, "the state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation". "Is it not the business of the state to know how many guns you have?" Mr. Morgan: "Perhaps we should store the firearms in the bedroom". Going back to Bill C-51 and C-17, Mr. Morgan stated that the educational component was supported, and that there was also some support for a "lifetime" FAC as opposed to every five years, that so far there had been a real decline in the number of firearms retailers and related businesses. Concerning registration, Mr. Morgan re-emphasised that there would be many terminals and therefore many outlets for hackers to access the system. That if banks, the military, government, universities, "IBM of all people" could be accessed then, "it would be naive to suggest that this one will not be able to be broken into as well". Sen. Andreychuk outlined some problems with FAC applications, such as qustions relating to bancruptcy and divorce and asked for clarification as to where the medical question was. Senator Cools asked if the questions refered to an officer being able to conduct an investigation which may consist of interviews with community workers, social workers, or "whomever". Mr. Morgan replied that it was clearly open ended. Andre Sponselee, CD, SSM - ----- End Included Message -----